Kansas Crimson

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:25 pm DC’s response is great. You’re so good when you want to be.

But at the same time, it seems pretty cynical to see another country doing objectively better at managing an emergency, and be so dismissive.

My reaction, at least, was to be curious what they’re doing better, and why, and what constructive takeaways we might be able to learn from it.

But to look at the other side of the coin DC flipped: is the Merican style bureaucracy, however one might describe it, worth the trade-offs?

What’s different between ours and theirs?

I didn't mean to be dismissive.

I just don't think I would be willing to accept the trade-off of effectiveness and efficiency in this instance for the same in all other instances.

What’s so awful about it?

Is there anything efficient or effective about the Merican bureaucracy?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:40 pm What’s so awful about it?

I'd tell you to ask 6 million Jews, but I don't think they're available for comment.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:40 pm Is there anything efficient or effective about the Merican bureaucracy?

Absolutely. It is, relatively speaking, very efficient and effective.

But in this country -- as opposed to Germany -- we've had a debate, over the course of more than a century, about the compatibility of professional bureaucratic administration on the one hand and self-government on the other.

No one (on the Left in particular) wants to admit this, but the closest this nation has ever come to a dictatorial ruler was Woodrow Wilson, who, not coincidentally, was the godfather of American public administration. In the aftermath of his presidency and the Progressive Era, more generally, we decided that we wanted administration to be tempered by self-governance. In PA terms, we rejected the "politics-administration dichotomy." We chose, in other words, to compromise between the old, corrupt spoils system and the new, anti-democratic professional administrative system. The result was/is a professional bureaucracy that is, nevertheless, still, at least nominally, democratically unaccountable because it is run, at the senior level, by political appointees.

This hurts continuity and mission cohesion, but it is, nevertheless, compatible with the Constitution and our founding ideals.

It's odd that everyone seems to mention Germany and South Korea as "success" stories with Covid-19... And nobody seems to mention Israel, whose fatality rate is far better than either of those.

What’s better in Israel?

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:42 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:40 pm What’s so awful about it?

I'd tell you to ask 6 million Jews, but I don't think they're available for comment.

I’m not sure what that has to do with responding to a pandemic in 2020.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:10 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:42 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:40 pm What’s so awful about it?

I'd tell you to ask 6 million Jews, but I don't think they're available for comment.

I’m not sure what that has to do with responding to a pandemic in 2020.

As I put it in my response to zsn, NEITHER of those experiences -- the Holocaust nor the COVID response -- took/are taking place in a vacuum. There is a continuum of governance, and the same efficiency that makes the bureaucracy effective in this crisis ALSO made it effective in liquidating 12 million lives.

You don't get to count the good and ignore the bad just because your perspective is self-limiting.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:09 pm What’s better in Israel?

The Israelis have been conditioned to be far more accepting of the need to see day-to-day activities in life-and-death terms.

Also, they all share a united purpose -- to SURVIVE and thrive as a people -- that very few other Western nations have any longer.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:19 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:10 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:42 pm

I'd tell you to ask 6 million Jews, but I don't think they're available for comment.

I’m not sure what that has to do with responding to a pandemic in 2020.

As I put it in my response to zsn, NEITHER of those experiences -- the Holocaust nor the COVID response -- took/are taking place in a vacuum. There is a continuum of governance, and the same efficiency that makes the bureaucracy effective in this crisis ALSO made it effective in liquidating 12 million lives.

You don't get to count the good and ignore the bad just because your perspective is self-limiting.

Did I miss some instance of "efficiency that makes the bureaucracy effective in this crisis"?

Mjl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:59 pm It's odd that everyone seems to mention Germany and South Korea as "success" stories with Covid-19... And nobody seems to mention Israel, whose fatality rate is far better than either of those.

busted

twocoach wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:27 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:19 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:10 pm

I’m not sure what that has to do with responding to a pandemic in 2020.

As I put it in my response to zsn, NEITHER of those experiences -- the Holocaust nor the COVID response -- took/are taking place in a vacuum. There is a continuum of governance, and the same efficiency that makes the bureaucracy effective in this crisis ALSO made it effective in liquidating 12 million lives.

You don't get to count the good and ignore the bad just because your perspective is self-limiting.

Did I miss some instance of "efficiency that makes the bureaucracy effective in this crisis"?

Yes.

The German bureaucracy.

Ya know the old Nazis are dead, right?

DC is obviously getting really desperate.

He knows it's distasteful to have to defend the Trump crime family but they are cutting taxes and destroying the administrative state. That's the real goal.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:19 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:10 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:42 pm

I'd tell you to ask 6 million Jews, but I don't think they're available for comment.

I’m not sure what that has to do with responding to a pandemic in 2020.

As I put it in my response to zsn, NEITHER of those experiences -- the Holocaust nor the COVID response -- took/are taking place in a vacuum. There is a continuum of governance, and the same efficiency that makes the bureaucracy effective in this crisis ALSO made it effective in liquidating 12 million lives.

You don't get to count the good and ignore the bad just because your perspective is self-limiting.

with that logic, are we gonna talk about slavery?

or better yet, the persecution and forced assimilation of American Indians?

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:42 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:40 pm What’s so awful about it?

I'd tell you to ask 6 million Jews, but I don't think they're available for comment.

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor 79 years ago.
Sorry, that really has nothing to do with what you posted.
I was just thinking about my Japanese neighbor who is a nurse and is probably working at Northwestern Hospital right now. God (if there is one) bless her.

Yeah, historical whataboutisms can add context, but can only seem to add so much context.

Either that, or let’s discuss why Italy got hammered by the pandemic cuz of the bureaucratic quirks of the Roman Empire.

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:35 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:19 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:10 pm

I’m not sure what that has to do with responding to a pandemic in 2020.

As I put it in my response to zsn, NEITHER of those experiences -- the Holocaust nor the COVID response -- took/are taking place in a vacuum. There is a continuum of governance, and the same efficiency that makes the bureaucracy effective in this crisis ALSO made it effective in liquidating 12 million lives.

You don't get to count the good and ignore the bad just because your perspective is self-limiting.

with that logic, are we gonna talk about slavery?

or better yet, the persecution and forced assimilation of American Indians?

Are you suggesting we don't already?

TDub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:06 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:35 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:19 pm

As I put it in my response to zsn, NEITHER of those experiences -- the Holocaust nor the COVID response -- took/are taking place in a vacuum. There is a continuum of governance, and the same efficiency that makes the bureaucracy effective in this crisis ALSO made it effective in liquidating 12 million lives.

You don't get to count the good and ignore the bad just because your perspective is self-limiting.

with that logic, are we gonna talk about slavery?

or better yet, the persecution and forced assimilation of American Indians?

Are you suggesting we don't already?

in this context?

no, not really

edit: if we’re using DC’s metric, Germany is head and shoulders above the US based solely on the US’s continued treatment of American Indians