Kansas Crimson

oh, excuse me. I thought I DID answer it, but you just dismissed it as a non-answer anyway.

so what WOULD be an acceptable answer, in your opinion? Ideally an answer that wouldn't get dismissed as not an answer after all?

with what system...that exists...or has ever existed do you want to replace capitalism.

you cant just slither around saying I wish we could be more democratically economical about our approach to society. That isn't an answer. Thats a fairy tale if you can't diagram it within the constraints of applicable societal realities.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:04 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 12:54 pm

TDub wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 12:51 pm

thats not an answer.

Not at all. Not worth it to even try, he literally admitted he doesn't even care if his crap is true

where did I say that?

could you please quote or link me to it?

cuz if I really need to clarify here, I DO care if my crap is true.

You can't have truth based on false premise. That's just how logic works.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:01 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 12:45 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 12:31 pm

oh forgive me. I wasn't trying to be too snarky, nor mindless.

you realize I was just quoting your own words, right?

you're allowed to speak with authority on these matters (but not professors in the field), yet when those EXACT SAME WORDS are quoted by me, it's mindless snark.

but let's try to stick to the honest post, shall we? Could you provide any evidence or examples to support your insights?

I didn't mention the onion. More lies and rhetoric. Go fucking hang out with Lobster, you're the same

ok, sorry, the onion comment may have been too snarky.

but for real dude, go re-read your post. Would you really say shit like that like, in front of a college classroom? As a rebuttal to a professor's lecture? And when asked for evidence or examples, just huff and puff all pissed about how it's EVERYONE ELSE who don't care whether points are true, and using rhetorical bullshit to try to confirm preconceived notions?

Or could I just kindly ask again for some evidence or examples in support or your points?

clarify how capitalism gives the most economic decision making to the most people

or how alternatives to capitalism operate on the assumption that humans are not greedy and power-hungry

or how capitalism is the only system that can keep that in check at all

Please?

You want me to provide evidence against a thread that provides none. That's rich.

"The guy is a professor!". Yeah, a minorty-opinion one. You sound like Lobster when he's talking about Robert Malone.

TDub wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:37 pm unless of course you're saying that your non-answer is the answer...in which case its even more of a pointless conversation. If you can't elaborate on the specific system that you want to employ how can we even begin to have a discussion about it? Are we supposed to just roll into the smoke filled fantastical world youve created in your head and say yes thats awesome...do it? How? what does that look like?

I DID elaborate!

I DID say how we could do it!

You just dismissed it without even bothering to consider it.

so let's try this again:

just generally, I wish we could value a broader, less concentrated, more democratic distribution of power and decision-making in economic matters, just like we value so dearly in political matters.

as in, don't let economic power become so concentrated, just like we don't think political power should be too concentrated either. Modify systems so that ALL stakeholders have some say in a company, rather than only those who hold the "capital." I think that would help to address a LOT of issues, from inequality to climate change. Otherwise, capitalism can look an awful lot closer to some sorta dictatorship on some economic level.

or would you prefer to argue in favor of the dictatorships?

Mjl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:46 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:01 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 12:45 pm

I didn't mention the onion. More lies and rhetoric. Go fucking hang out with Lobster, you're the same

ok, sorry, the onion comment may have been too snarky.

but for real dude, go re-read your post. Would you really say shit like that like, in front of a college classroom? As a rebuttal to a professor's lecture? And when asked for evidence or examples, just huff and puff all pissed about how it's EVERYONE ELSE who don't care whether points are true, and using rhetorical bullshit to try to confirm preconceived notions?

Or could I just kindly ask again for some evidence or examples in support or your points?

clarify how capitalism gives the most economic decision making to the most people

or how alternatives to capitalism operate on the assumption that humans are not greedy and power-hungry

or how capitalism is the only system that can keep that in check at all

Please?

You want me to provide evidence against a thread that provides none. That's rich.

"The guy is a professor!". Yeah, a minorty-opinion one. You sound like Lobster when he's talking about Robert Malone.

forgive me if I didn't do more to vet the professor.

but, your "minority-opinion" comment is alarming. Are you saying the only opinions that should matter are the ones held by some majority?

cuz that comment makes you sound like lobster when he would talk about straight white men.

TDub wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:43 pm with what system...that exists...or has ever existed do you want to replace capitalism.

you cant just slither around saying I wish we could be more democratically economical about our approach to society. That isn't an answer. Thats a fairy tale if you can't diagram it within the constraints of applicable societal realities.

"seize the means of production" was coined almost 200 years ago.

since, it's been the target of almost 200 years of western capitalist smear rhetoric. Heck, how many Americans are even more scared of commies than they are of nazis?

One wants to provide things like healthcare and education too; and the other wants to suppress, if not exterminate, uh, all sorts of demographic minorities...and yet somehow mjl can't even tell a difference! I'm just like lobster, remember?

how else could such a democratic idea be so taboo in the democracy-loving west?

oh - one other thing about lefties that appeals to me:

they're the only demographic that seems to actually want to take swift and substantive action to combat climate change?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 2:06 pm

TDub wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:43 pm with what system...that exists...or has ever existed do you want to replace capitalism.

you cant just slither around saying I wish we could be more democratically economical about our approach to society. That isn't an answer. Thats a fairy tale if you can't diagram it within the constraints of applicable societal realities.

"seize the means of production" was coined almost 200 years ago.

since, it's been the target of almost 200 years of western capitalist smear rhetoric. Heck, how many Americans are even more scared of commies than they are of nazis?

One wants to provide things like healthcare and education too; and the other wants to suppress, if not exterminate, uh, all sorts of demographic minorities...and yet somehow mjl can't even tell a difference! I'm just like lobster, remember?

how else could such a democratic idea be so taboo in the democracy-loving west?

my goodness.


so you want communism?

you want socialism?

you want feudalism?

you want statism?

you want distrubitism?

what do you want?


I won't even address the nazi thing as it serves no real purpose other than to redirect the conversation with some radical and ridiculous claim that you have no basis to prove or disprove.

99's got a cold one waiting for you in the positive thread, bro

awesome answer. thanks for the info

I'm done again. Impossible.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:53 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:46 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:01 pm

ok, sorry, the onion comment may have been too snarky.

but for real dude, go re-read your post. Would you really say shit like that like, in front of a college classroom? As a rebuttal to a professor's lecture? And when asked for evidence or examples, just huff and puff all pissed about how it's EVERYONE ELSE who don't care whether points are true, and using rhetorical bullshit to try to confirm preconceived notions?

Or could I just kindly ask again for some evidence or examples in support or your points?

clarify how capitalism gives the most economic decision making to the most people

or how alternatives to capitalism operate on the assumption that humans are not greedy and power-hungry

or how capitalism is the only system that can keep that in check at all

Please?

You want me to provide evidence against a thread that provides none. That's rich.

"The guy is a professor!". Yeah, a minorty-opinion one. You sound like Lobster when he's talking about Robert Malone.

forgive me if I didn't do more to vet the professor.

but, your "minority-opinion" comment is alarming. Are you saying the only opinions that should matter are the ones held by some majority?

cuz that comment makes you sound like lobster when he would talk about straight white men.

You're not this stupid... Are you? Like you know that minority there doesn't refer to gender/race/religion/ethnic minorities... Right?

As in, you keep bringing up that he's a professor because that's an appeal to expertise - but the majority of experts would disagree with him, hence modern economics.

OK bro, so much for trying to get along. have it your way.

if you're asking what I want, AGAIN, I'd like to see a more democratic approach to economic power and decision making, similar to the democratic approach we value for political power. I think that could be achieved by affording all stakeholders a stay in a company, rather than only those who possess the capital.

Would you care to argue otherwise?

(and regarding your comment that you won't even address the nazi thing - no one wanted to address the nazi thing in the 1930s, either.)

Mjl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 2:39 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:53 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 1:46 pm

You want me to provide evidence against a thread that provides none. That's rich.

"The guy is a professor!". Yeah, a minorty-opinion one. You sound like Lobster when he's talking about Robert Malone.

forgive me if I didn't do more to vet the professor.

but, your "minority-opinion" comment is alarming. Are you saying the only opinions that should matter are the ones held by some majority?

cuz that comment makes you sound like lobster when he would talk about straight white men.

You're not this stupid... Are you? Like you know that minority there doesn't refer to gender/race/religion/ethnic minorities... Right?

and you're not this stupid either. Are you?

I realize you said minority in terms of deviating from the majority opinion.

you're the one insisting on some (without yet otherwise identifying it) homogeneous "majority" as the only acceptable narrative, which is straight out of the lobster playbook. I shouldn't have mentioned demographics so quickly.

Mjl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 2:41 pm As in, you keep bringing up that he's a professor because that's an appeal to expertise - but the majority of experts would disagree with him, hence modern economics.

ah, so is this the majority?!

please do elaborate with regard to all these experts who disagree.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 2:43 pm I think that could be achieved by affording all stakeholders a stay in a company, rather than only those who possess the capital.

That already exists in the a lot of companies in the United States.

It exists in the company I work for. Anyone else?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 2:53 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 2:41 pm As in, you keep bringing up that he's a professor because that's an appeal to expertise - but the majority of experts would disagree with him, hence modern economics.

ah, so is this the majority?!

please do elaborate with regard to all these experts who disagree.

Take an economics course. Where do you think textbooks and curriculums come from.

That doesn't mean whatever is taught is necessarily correct. But you shouldn't be trying to appeal to expertise when the bulk of experts disagree with that outlier.

"people are saying..."

on which point or points, specifically, do you think experts disagree? Who are the experts? What's their understanding otherwise?

Hickel mentions these 3 points:

1. capitalism and artificial scarcity
2. capitalism's organization around and dependence on continuous expansion
3. preclusion of democratic principles, with decision-making overwhelmingly done by only those who control the capital

which point or points does which expert (or majority of experts) disagree with, and why? Or do they do just summarily dismiss the entire thing on "false premises" and avoid any meaningful answer otherwise?