Kansas Crimson

jeepinjayhawk wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 11:16 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 4:22 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 4:17 pm
If we're fortunate to have witnesses catch it on video from multiple angles.

OK.

Is it your contention, then, that the Police Department of the city of Minneapolis is in the habit of using excessive force against and killing black men? That this is endemic behavior among police in Minneapolis and that what happened to George Floyd is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg?

As a former Law Enforcement officer...yes.
It is a by product of improprieties being ignored...escalating each time.

It of course happens, and gets officially written off. At least, until hard evidence shows it to actually have occurred.

I have seen dozens of police officers throw handcuffed men down flights of stairs.
I have witnessed many dozens of arrests being made outside of Miranda or many other lawful practices.
I have seen, and testified against, sworn testimony that simply went against truth.

If you fall into the mind set that police are infallible....you are part of the problem......barely recognizable to the truth

sdoyel wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 12:42 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 11:45 pm

jeepinjayhawk wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 11:16 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 4:22 pm

OK.

Is it your contention, then, that the Police Department of the city of Minneapolis is in the habit of using excessive force against and killing black men? That this is endemic behavior among police in Minneapolis and that what happened to George Floyd is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg?

As a former Law Enforcement officer...yes.
It is a by product of improprieties being ignored...escalating each time.

It of course happens, and gets officially written off. At least, until hard evidence shows it to actually have occurred.

I have seen dozens of police officers throw handcuffed men down flights of stairs.
I have witnessed many dozens of arrests being made outside of Miranda or many other lawful practices.
I have seen, and testified against, sworn testimony that simply went against truth.

If you fall into the mind set that police are infallible....you are part of the problem......barely recognizable to the truth

Thanks. I appreciate your perspective, and was waiting for you to chime in.

But 2 things: First, I don't think ANYONE said police are infallible or that they don't make mistakes. In fact, I think EVERYONE has said the opposite, with the distinction being who is to blame and in what proportion.

Second, that doesn't really answer the question about whether violence against black men by the Minneapolis PD specifically is endemic.

The MPD was responsible for killing 8 people from 2013 to 2018. That averages out to 3.0 police-caused deaths per million residents per year. That's BELOW the national average of 3.4 and WELL below the rate for twocoach's beloved Omaha PD (@5.2). (It also happens to be well above the average for the police department whose officers I'm most familiar with, but that's probably not relevant).

4 of those killed were black (1 Latino, 1 white, and 2 not disclosed).

Additionally, statistics show that 90-95% of subjects killed by police were armed when killed. If we apply that to the MPD #s, we get 1 person in six years who was unarmed. In a perfect world, that's 1 too many, granted, but is it proof of anything?

Also, I realize that killings and "excessive force" are not necessarily the same thing, but it's not an unreasonable proxy, especially given the limits of online data.

twocoach wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:50 am Are you trying to "statistic" us into believing that there isn't actually a problem? Yes, that's 1 person per six years for one police department.

There are nearly 18,000 police departments at the city, county, state and federal level.

What jeepinjayhawk described feels like what is endemic to many police forces. Many incidents like he described aren't counted in your beloved statistics, yet they still result in the continuing erosion of faith in the communities that these officers are supposed to be serving that the police can be trusted.

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:59 am i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:59 am i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:06 am https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 223984002/

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:55 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:59 am i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:47 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:50 am Are you trying to "statistic" us into believing that there isn't actually a problem? Yes, that's 1 person per six years for one police department.

There are nearly 18,000 police departments at the city, county, state and federal level.

What jeepinjayhawk described feels like what is endemic to many police forces. Many incidents like he described aren't counted in your beloved statistics, yet they still result in the continuing erosion of faith in the communities that these officers are supposed to be serving that the police can be trusted.

My God.

The question I asked was about the MPD.

I'm so sorry if I confused you by discussing statistics instead of "feels likes."

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 10:13 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:55 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:59 am i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

what’s you’re guesstament on the proportion of blame?

-unions
-unions/politicians
-bureaucracy of individual departments
-hiring practices of individual departments

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 10:13 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:55 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:59 am i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

what’s you’re guesstament on the proportion of blame?

-unions
-unions/politicians
-bureaucracy of individual departments
-hiring practices of individual departments

twocoach wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 10:15 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:47 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:50 am Are you trying to "statistic" us into believing that there isn't actually a problem? Yes, that's 1 person per six years for one police department.

There are nearly 18,000 police departments at the city, county, state and federal level.

What jeepinjayhawk described feels like what is endemic to many police forces. Many incidents like he described aren't counted in your beloved statistics, yet they still result in the continuing erosion of faith in the communities that these officers are supposed to be serving that the police can be trusted.

My God.

The question I asked was about the MPD.

I'm so sorry if I confused you by discussing statistics instead of "feels likes."

No one is claiming that the MPD has an endemic issue with officers killing citizens. You're trying to prove wrong a statement that no one is making and then yelling at everyone for not embracing your reasoning.

I do agree with you that in general, the country would be better off if folks researched more and screamed less. I have believed for the last 4 years that we would not have Dumbfuck In Charge if more people researched the stupid ass reasonings they used to discredit Clinton.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 10:30 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 10:15 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:47 am

My God.

The question I asked was about the MPD.

I'm so sorry if I confused you by discussing statistics instead of "feels likes."

No one is claiming that the MPD has an endemic issue with officers killing citizens. You're trying to prove wrong a statement that no one is making and then yelling at everyone for not embracing your reasoning.

I do agree with you that in general, the country would be better off if folks researched more and screamed less. I have believed for the last 4 years that we would not have Dumbfuck In Charge if more people researched the stupid ass reasonings they used to discredit Clinton.

I'm not trying to "prove" a fucking thing.

I asked a question:

Is it your contention, then, that the Police Department of the city of Minneapolis is in the habit of using excessive force against and killing black men? That this is endemic behavior among police in Minneapolis

It's that simple. I. Asked. A. Fucking. Question.

You've responded with a series of grand societal statements based on your feelings.

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 10:13 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:55 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:59 am i wonder how much of the difficulty associated with getting rid of bad eggs has to do with unions, vs individual departments and the like

i could be wrong, but it seems a little lazy to just blame the big bad unions

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

what’s you’re guesstament on the proportion of blame?

-unions
-unions/politicians
-bureaucracy of individual departments
-hiring practices of individual departments

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 11:35 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 10:13 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:55 am

Also a little lazy not to inform oneself about police unions and to go with a "seems like" instead.

But then no one "blamed" the unions. There's a difference between blaming them and stating that they're a big part of the problem.

what’s you’re guesstament on the proportion of blame?

-unions
-unions/politicians
-bureaucracy of individual departments
-hiring practices of individual departments

Also worth discussing qualified immunity and its contribution to this mess.