Let’s have a war!

[KUTradition]

Absolutely so. They are definitely feeling it quite a bit.

I've gone back and read that article with Fiona Hill about 3 times. Man, it's powerful, probably really accurate and quite scary. I guess I didn't realize the Russian span of life for men was shorter. 70 for Russian men is quite old. His appearance has declined, he's having issues with his body and he's gotten quite a bit puffy in the face which could mean some steroids to help. But he wants to accomplish a lot of stuff before he dies. Who knows how far away he is, but there is that aspect as well.

the Hill interview is pretty sobering for anyone who hasn’t read it

damn the entertainment industry…through all of this i keep thinking, “where’s Jack Ryan when we need him”

(but only the Harrison Ford version…fuck those other guys)

[KUTradition]

https://ukrainefacts.org

interesting that India, Spain and the US have been the biggest targets of misinformation

[Qusdahl]

So...your main point being: Don't believe everything the government tells us to believe?

not being an ass just trying to filter out to a tangible point

That’s a big part of it. But still only part of it.

My point was we need to have some greater conscience when it comes to war. Something that’s more than just accepting war, and picking a side. And only picking and choosing when we decide to even care about war, at that. Something with some awareness.

I’ve tried to be clear here. Perhaps I need to work on my messaging or something.

Either way, go figure so many attacked that point as being for the “other side.”

Chalk it up to being so conditioned by the propaganda?

[twocoach]

So...your main point being: Don't believe everything the government tells us to believe?

not being an ass just trying to filter out to a tangible point

That’s a big part of it. But still only part of it.

My point was we need to have some greater conscience when it comes to war. Something that’s more than just accepting war, and picking a side. And only picking and choosing when we decide to even care about war, at that. Something with some awareness.

I’ve tried to be clear here. Perhaps I need to work on my messaging or something.

Either way, go figure so many attacked that point as being for the “other side.”

Chalk it up to being so conditioned by the propaganda?

Hey, if you have enough time to learn all of the factors that led up to a war because you want to be more enlightened then go for it. I am never one to discourage research and knowledge. Just don't start with shit you read on twitter, especially when it comes to Russia as they have well established troll farms pumping bullshit info down all social media pipes.

[MICHHAWK]

the oushdale is operating at a whole nother level.

[twocoach]

the oushdale is operating at a whole nother level.

The intention is honorable but the execution is young, hyperactive and sloppy. At least he is trying to learn what is going on and why instead of just regurgitating talking points.

[Qusdahl]

Meh, im not sure it does much good to discount Twitter on a such a blanket level, either. Yeah it can be disinformation, but it can also at least get research and knowledge pointed in the right direction. What’s important is vetting sources and of thinking critically.

[KUTradition]

Meh, im not sure it does much good to discount Twitter on a such a blanket level, either. Yeah it can be disinformation, but it can also at least get research and knowledge pointed in the right direction. What’s important is vetting sources and of thinking critically.

have you read the Politico piece that jfish linked?

you ought to, as i think you would have much the same sentiments as Fiona Hill

though, there are obvious differences in the conclusions that are drawn

[Qusdahl]

the oushdale is operating at a whole nother level.

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

[KUTradition]

reading reports of Chechens joining the Ukrainian cause

internationally recognized victims of russian genocide coming back to bite putin in the ass

[KUTradition]

It didn't look like they were limiting themselves to military facilities before this, either.

Nothing has moved me off of the central thesis that: (1) Russia's first-strike advanced warfare capabilities (knock out comms, establish air superiority, take high priority targets with precision weapons and special forces) were grossly overstated; (2) Russia's equipment is in poor shape, and the logistics operations (which rely on conscripts as opposed to career soldiers) are disorganized and ineffective; and (3) Russia is now left resorting to brute force and indiscriminate means.

I suspect what's going to happen is that Russia is essentially going to lay siege to the cities and, along with shutting out foreign materiel shipments, conduct what is essentially a terror/torture campaign to scare/starve Ukraine into submission.

And off we go.

somewhat ironically, apparently this strike also hit a nearby holocaust memorial

[Deleted User 863]

instead of just regurgitating talking points.

Umm....

[TDub]

So...your main point being: Don't believe everything the government tells us to believe?

not being an ass just trying to filter out to a tangible point

That’s a big part of it. But still only part of it.

My point was we need to have some greater conscience when it comes to war. Something that’s more than just accepting war, and picking a side. And only picking and choosing when we decide to even care about war, at that. Something with some awareness.

I’ve tried to be clear here. Perhaps I need to work on my messaging or something.

Either way, go figure so many attacked that point as being for the “other side.”

Chalk it up to being so conditioned by the propaganda?

1. Should we question other things the government tells us to believe...or just justifications for conflict?

2. I dont know that many people are accepting war. We have no control over what various nations and rulers choose to do. The war is here, it isn't ours (yet), but accept it or not, it is ongoing currently. The picking sides thing is more a reaction to a clear aggressor and a clear defender. One country sent hundreds of thousands of armed troops into a sovereign country and began killing....only after that did they start spewing their propaganda for justifying their actions. You are being labeled the way you are because, as is your nature (I dont mean that particularly negatively), as soon as it happened you dove in with your open ended "questions" and the "yeah but..." routine.

In a tense situations those sorts of proposals are going to be interpreted as apologetic towards the aggressor.

[KUTradition]

Germany’s cage, rattled

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... on/623322/

[Qusdahl]

I’m trying to keep up with all the readings. And would like to continue this discussion you guys! And have a few other points and responses I’d like to follow up on - tomorrow.

Maybe my execution has been sloppy. If I could offer a few tweets that I think capture my vibe well right now, it’s something along these lines:

[TDub]

man that Atlas Hatcher is a real wordsmith, his tweet really cleared up your stance.

[KUTradition]

maybe i’m wrong, but it seems that NATO (and the economic and political relationships that it’s fostered) has largely been responsible for relative peace we’ve seen in Europe since WWII

[japhy]

And the thing that is most destabilizing for Putin about the direction that Ukraine has been taking is not that it is getting cozy with NATO, it is that average Russians see average Ukrainians as having a better life than they do. As their life became more democratic and westernized the average Russian probably views their neighbors lives with envy. And the Russians start to equate their misery with Putin and the oligarchs. The closer stability, confidence and peace gets to Putin's borders the more his own citizens want it. They see breakaway States getting it; the Czechs, the Poles, the Ukrainians. This is the biggest threat to Putin. Not an invasion from NATO, but another Russian revolution. This violent stomping of happiness and freedom has as much to do about making a statement to his own people about how ruthless he is as it is about warning neighboring States. And it is less internal resentment in his own house if he isn't destroying homes in Russia. But if the war drags on then he has to deal with the pointless loss of life of his own people's children. That will cost him. He wants to install fear in his own people. But if they are angry because their family is dead they will have nothing left to lose. He underestimated the ability of NATO to circle the wagons. He is probably wishing he had done this when trump was president. trump would be doing the opposite of Biden and would have thrown NATO under the bus. Putin was hoping Biden would fuck this up, or NATO wouldn't rally, and he could have made himself look powerful and gotten trump back into the presidency by showing Biden to be weak. Then trump would pull out of NATO which has always been Putin's big dream.

Now is not really the time to talk about the all of the other shit we should have done differently over the years and stoke division and divides in our resolve with the whataboutisms. Now is the time to show resolve in opposing someone who would rather blow up the planet than lose power or back down. Putin is in a corner and has little wiggle room to get out of this and save face. If his own military doesn't turn on him he will have to be appeased in some small fashion so that his ego can claim victory and escalate this thing. But he already may have started the mechanism for his own demise at home and that is what worries him the most.

[jfish26]

And the thing that is most destabilizing for Putin about the direction that Ukraine has been taking is not that it is getting cozy with NATO, it is that average Russians see average Ukrainians as having a better life than they do. As their life became more democratic and westernized the average Russian probably views their neighbors lives with envy. And the Russians start to equate their misery with Putin and the oligarchs. The closer stability, confidence and peace gets to Putin's borders the more his own citizens want it. They see breakaway States getting it; the Czechs, the Poles, the Ukrainians. This is the biggest threat to Putin. Not an invasion from NATO, but another Russian revolution. This violent stomping of happiness and freedom has as much to do about making a statement to his own people about how ruthless he is as it is about warning neighboring States. And it is less internal resentment in his own house if he isn't destroying homes in Russia. But if the war drags on then he has to deal with the pointless loss of life of his own people's children. That will cost him. He wants to install fear in his own people. But if they are angry because their family is dead they will have nothing left to lose. He underestimated the ability of NATO to circle the wagons. He is probably wishing he had done this when trump was president. trump would be doing the opposite of Biden and would have thrown NATO under the bus. Putin was hoping Biden would fuck this up, or NATO wouldn't rally, and he could have made himself look powerful and gotten trump back into the presidency by showing Biden to be weak. Then trump would pull out of NATO which has always been Putin's big dream.

Now is not really the time to talk about the all of the other shit we should have done differently over the years and stoke division and divides in our resolve with the whataboutisms. Now is the time to show resolve in opposing someone who would rather blow up the planet than lose power or back down. Putin is in a corner and has little wiggle room to get out of this and save face. If his own military doesn't turn on him he will have to be appeased in some small fashion so that his ego can claim victory and escalate this thing. But he already may have started the mechanism for his own demise at home and that is what worries him the most.

Spot on.

[TDub]

I dunno...I gotta defer to Atlas on this one


don't take sides when talking about America assuming America is the one being invaded. You should take a side...its Ukraine.


I dont understand why people make fun of Twitter...I mean, they're all eloquent, vetted sources.