Let’s have a war!

[jfish26]

Even if we limit this discussion to just the countries mentioned today, the United States does have a history of invading, occupying, or otherwise rattling sabers with all three, including the invasion of one of those countries within your and my lifetime, with bipartisan support to boot.

That’s to say - these latest comments make me kinda wonder whether it’s just Trump talking out of his ass again, or whether Trump is actually saying the quiet part out loud, and the U.S. really does have more imperial ambitions in these places.

There go them goalposts!

[BiggDick]

Wut?

I mean, if I really wanted to move goalposts, I woulda just brought up universal healthcare and Putin and Xi instead.

[jfish26]

You said:

With the issue presented in this thread here today, bear in mind there are more similarities than differences between the two major party candidates and platforms.

That is a post about Harris/Ds and Trump/Rs.

And so I said:

Just a nonsensical thing to say.

One party would bend the knee to Putin (and by extension, Xi), and rattle sabers at North American neighbors and near-neighbors.

The other would not.

That is also a post about Harris/Ds and Trump/Rs.

To which you responded:

Even if we limit this discussion to just the countries mentioned today, the United States does have a history of invading, occupying, or otherwise rattling sabers with all three, including the invasion of one of those countries within your and my lifetime, with bipartisan support to boot.

This is NOT a post about Harris/Ds and Trump/Rs. It is expanding the scope of the discussion so that your point, retroactively or something, seems to make sense.

That's moving the goalposts!

[BiggDick]

I'm just not sure it is moving goalposts.

And I'm even more not sure it's moving goalposts any more than the goofy directions you've pushed in some attempt to derail the discussion here.

You also went for that strategy of quoting me but omitting part of my post that otherwise adds context.

But, let's try for another angle, which should be a shot straight between these here goalposts:

If Biden or Harris DID come out and say "yea we wanna invade Panama/Canada/Greenland/wherever, like for real, take your pick, just throw a dart at a map!, you would very likely support the invasion robustly, and insist that whatever rationale offered is true and just, and insist even more aggressively that any opinion besides your own must only be bad guy propaganda...



...that, or make a very conspicuous effort to simply not understand the situation.

[Overlander]

If Biden or Harris DID come out and say "yea we wanna invade Panama/Canada/Greenland/wherever, like for real, take your pick, just throw a dart at a map!, you would very likely support the invasion robustly, and insist that whatever rationale offered is true and just, and insist even more aggressively that any opinion besides your own must only be bad guy propaganda...

I can’t speak for anyone else.
But I could not get onboard with this, regardless of whose “idea” it is.

This type of talk falls right in line with subtle support for Putin.

[BiggDick]

If Biden or Harris DID come out and say "yea we wanna invade Panama/Canada/Greenland/wherever, like for real, take your pick, just throw a dart at a map!, you would very likely support the invasion robustly, and insist that whatever rationale offered is true and just, and insist even more aggressively that any opinion besides your own must only be bad guy propaganda...

I can’t speak for anyone else.
But I could not get onboard with this, regardless of whose “idea” it is.

oh so NOW you speak up.

Thanks?

This type of talk falls right in line with subtle support for Putin.

oh, do tell!

I eagerly await your reasoning.

[Overlander]

If Biden or Harris DID come out and say "yea we wanna invade Panama/Canada/Greenland/wherever, like for real, take your pick, just throw a dart at a map!, you would very likely support the invasion robustly, and insist that whatever rationale offered is true and just, and insist even more aggressively that any opinion besides your own must only be bad guy propaganda...

I can’t speak for anyone else.
But I could not get onboard with this, regardless of whose “idea” it is.

oh so NOW you speak up.

Thanks?

This type of talk falls right in line with subtle support for Putin.

oh, do tell!

I eagerly await your reasoning.

Here it comes, and if you roll back with some “bothsiderism” crap, I am done bantering with you.

The US, in fact most of the world, came out of WW2 with an understanding that a country deciding that land another country has is rightly theirs was WRONG.

Further wars have been fought defending the sovereignty of countries since then. Several in fact.

The democratic world has rarely stood by and simply allowed these actions to stand.

Trumps first term accomplished only 1 major feat. He convinced the world that the US could be “talked” into allowing annexing territories.

Trump spouted making NATO powerless.
He had several reasons why, reasons that the mouth breathers would throw their tiny little hands up and scream USA!!!

As a member of NATO, it in no way benefits the US to weaken NATO. It only takes 1 finger to point to whom it would benefit.

When many of us point out that Trump is literally doing the heavy lifting for Putin, these are the instances that make that stance pretty iron clad.

Also, our resident mouth breathers can save their oxygen spouting the Trump line that he just wants everyone to pay up fairly. Straight from Putins mouth into your soft little heads.

[jfish26]

If Biden or Harris DID come out and say "yea we wanna invade Panama/Canada/Greenland/wherever, like for real, take your pick, just throw a dart at a map!, you would very likely support the invasion robustly, and insist that whatever rationale offered is true and just, and insist even more aggressively that any opinion besides your own must only be bad guy propaganda...

This is more nonsense.* Nothing I have said supports this.

* And goalpost-moving, besides: Biden did not invade Russia. Biden supported Ukraine in defending against being invaded BY Russia. But this is not a distinction you have ever grasped.

[BiggDick]

overland's take is fascinating.

pretty much every single part of it.

Now, hopefully that response isn't too much "bothsiderism," and I'm intentionally biting my tongue about one or two points that might be a tad too both-sides-y...cuz, this banter, oh man!

the way you suggest a post-WW2 world just kinda did away with "a country deciding that land another country has," - which is to say, a post-WW2 world just kinda did away with imperialism.

Presumably the wars since then - several in fact - were actually in the name of defending sovereignty. As if the United States hasn't been involved in one single conflict on the other side of the world since, and even if we were, we were just there for sake of leaving that country alone!

We didn't fuck around in Korea or Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan or Iraq again or Panama or so many other examples cuz of communism or oil or any reason at all, other than defending sovereignty...if it was anything but, then the "democratic world" would have not allowed such actions to stand.

Then a bunch of boogeyman shit about Trump - not that I necessarily disagree!

(I'm admittedly curious which territories in particular Trump convinced the world that the U.S. could be "talked" into allowing annexing, tho I have a hunch...among other curiosities yet)

But my favorite part, by far, is "pretty ironic clad."

Even if that's a typo, it's still quite the phrase to coin.

[KUTradition]

grunt, grunt…ug

[BiggDick]

If Biden or Harris DID come out and say "yea we wanna invade Panama/Canada/Greenland/wherever, like for real, take your pick, just throw a dart at a map!, you would very likely support the invasion robustly, and insist that whatever rationale offered is true and just, and insist even more aggressively that any opinion besides your own must only be bad guy propaganda...

This is more nonsense.* Nothing I have said supports this.

except for, like, the fact that for every war thread issue Biden and Harris has pushed, you've either offered unwavering support, or chose to just not understand it. That pattern of behavior kinda DOES support this.

* And goalpost-moving, besides: Biden did not invade Russia. Biden supported Ukraine in defending against being invaded BY Russia. But this is not a distinction you have ever grasped.

I will never doubt your ability to just throw a dart at a map, and have it somehow manage to land on Ukraine every single time.

If you could exhibit such accuracy on 15-20 plus bullseye, you'd be quite the matchup playing Cricket.

[jfish26]

If Biden or Harris DID come out and say "yea we wanna invade Panama/Canada/Greenland/wherever, like for real, take your pick, just throw a dart at a map!, you would very likely support the invasion robustly, and insist that whatever rationale offered is true and just, and insist even more aggressively that any opinion besides your own must only be bad guy propaganda...

This is more nonsense.* Nothing I have said supports this.

except for, like, the fact that for every war thread issue Biden and Harris has pushed, you've either offered unwavering support*1*, or chose to just not understand it.*2* That pattern of behavior kinda DOES support this.

* And goalpost-moving, besides: Biden did not invade Russia. Biden supported Ukraine in defending against being invaded BY Russia. But this is not a distinction you have ever grasped.

I will never doubt your ability to just throw a dart at a map, and have it somehow manage to land on Ukraine every single time.*3*

If you could exhibit such accuracy on 15-20 plus bullseye, you'd be quite the matchup playing Cricket.

*1* - Please support this with evidence. I've been in support of our support of Ukraine's defense (I wish we did more, frankly). I've been more measured about our support for Israel. If you have EVIDENCE that I have offered "unwavering support" for a different "war thread issue Biden and Harris has pushed," please show it.

*2* - Your unsupported claims show exactly WHY I chose not to attempt to speak with unearned confidence about something that I felt I did not understand very well. It's sort of amazing how you keep insisting that restraint and self-awareness are somehow BAD.

*3* - This is the Ukraine war thread.

[Overlander]

grunt, grunt…ug

Yeah, I’m out.

[BiggDick]

Sigh.

I really wish the discussion could be better than “I’m out” sorts of dismissals and grunting, like literal grunting…but here we are again.

[BiggDick]

This is more nonsense.* Nothing I have said supports this.

except for, like, the fact that for every war thread issue Biden and Harris has pushed, you've either offered unwavering support*1*, or chose to just not understand it.*2* That pattern of behavior kinda DOES support this.

* And goalpost-moving, besides: Biden did not invade Russia. Biden supported Ukraine in defending against being invaded BY Russia. But this is not a distinction you have ever grasped.

I will never doubt your ability to just throw a dart at a map, and have it somehow manage to land on Ukraine every single time.*3*

If you could exhibit such accuracy on 15-20 plus bullseye, you'd be quite the matchup playing Cricket.

*1* - Please support this with evidence. I've been in support of our support of Ukraine's defense (I wish we did more, frankly). I've been more measured about our support for Israel. If you have EVIDENCE that I have offered "unwavering support" for a different "war thread issue Biden and Harris has pushed," please show it.

*2* - Your unsupported claims show exactly WHY I chose not to attempt to speak with unearned confidence about something that I felt I did not understand very well. It's sort of amazing how you keep insisting that restraint and self-awareness are somehow BAD.

*3* - This is the Ukraine war thread.

1 and 2 are a package deal. Either/or

I’ve tried this before, but if you really want to try for a little perspective of your own, consider the specifics of the particular issue for which you replied by admitting you just don’t understand. That’s at least one good place to start.

As for 3 - this is the Ukraine thread only if you choose to focus so specifically and exclusively on Ukraine as your pet issue, and even then focus only on the details that do not conflict with your own opinions.

One could just as easily, and more accurately, say this thread was and is the all-purpose war discussion, named after a punk rock song that offers a satirical criticism of war - an ironic clad that is completely lost on so many posters here as they rather go for their own oblivious jingo-patriotic rah rah sorts of talking points instead.

[Sparko]

The goalposts are in Potter Lake. All is well.

[jfish26]

except for, like, the fact that for every war thread issue Biden and Harris has pushed, you've either offered unwavering support*1*, or chose to just not understand it.*2* That pattern of behavior kinda DOES support this.



I will never doubt your ability to just throw a dart at a map, and have it somehow manage to land on Ukraine every single time.*3*

If you could exhibit such accuracy on 15-20 plus bullseye, you'd be quite the matchup playing Cricket.

*1* - Please support this with evidence. I've been in support of our support of Ukraine's defense (I wish we did more, frankly). I've been more measured about our support for Israel. If you have EVIDENCE that I have offered "unwavering support" for a different "war thread issue Biden and Harris has pushed," please show it.

*2* - Your unsupported claims show exactly WHY I chose not to attempt to speak with unearned confidence about something that I felt I did not understand very well. It's sort of amazing how you keep insisting that restraint and self-awareness are somehow BAD.

*3* - This is the Ukraine war thread.

1 and 2 are a package deal. Either/or

I’ve tried this before, but if you really want to try for a little perspective of your own, consider the specifics of the particular issue for which you replied by admitting you just don’t understand. That’s at least one good place to start.

As for 3 - this is the Ukraine thread only if you choose to focus so specifically and exclusively on Ukraine as your pet issue, and even then focus only on the details that do not conflict with your own opinions.

One could just as easily, and more accurately, say this thread was and is the all-purpose war discussion, named after a punk rock song that offers a satirical criticism of war - an ironic clad that is completely lost on so many posters here as they rather go for their own oblivious jingo-patriotic rah rah sorts of talking points instead.

1 and 2 are only "a package deal" if you make them one.

In other words, yes, if that is where you choose to put the goalposts.

I do not choose to do that. I do not think that the situations are comparable enough to be analyzed as if they are the same thing.

But go on, tell me more about how I see things only in black-and-white terms that line up with my ideological preferences.

[BiggDick]

that's one helluva attempt to try for a little perspective.

but I know, it was foolish of me to think you asking for evidence might mean you're finally willing to consider it.

[jfish26]

that's one helluva attempt to try for a little perspective.

but I know, it was foolish of me to think you asking for evidence might mean you're finally willing to consider it.

If you provide the evidence that was asked for - which, so we’re on the same page, is simply evidence that supports a specific claim you made, about how I feel (?) - then I will consider it!

You changing the ground rules, being this nonsensical insistence that Ukraine and Israel must be regarded as “a package deal” because you say so, is goalpost-moving.

[Overlander]

Sigh.

I really wish the discussion could be better than “I’m out” sorts of dismissals and grunting, like literal grunting…but here we are again.

Your “discussions” are an endless circle jerk. The constant contrarian form of interaction requires more bandwidth than I care to give.

You do you, I guess