Kansas Crimson

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:01 am

Grandma wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:58 am Other things of note. Take them for what they are worth.
88-89 season Chambers finished 9th in league MVP voting.
89-90 season Chambers finished 8th in league MVP voting.

Only proving my argument of rosters now v rosters then.

LOL!
Right, because Magic, Chuck, MJ, The Mailman, Ewing, The Admiral, Hakeem, Stockton, Bird, Drexler, Dumars, Isiah, etc., etc., etc, would all suck in today's NBA.

Players have more access to game tape to study previous players, to study current players, there are more coaches, bigger staffs around the players, better nutrition, more competition on every team, better techniques and equipment to get in shape, big players have gotten more skilled, more players are trying to take your spots and so and and so on.

I am comfortable with saying the league overall plays better ball than the 90s.

Dumars might not suck, but wouldn't be great.

Ewing might not suck, but he might not be great either.

Grandma wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:06 pm

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:01 am

Grandma wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:58 am Other things of note. Take them for what they are worth.
88-89 season Chambers finished 9th in league MVP voting.
89-90 season Chambers finished 8th in league MVP voting.

Only proving my argument of rosters now v rosters then.

LOL!
Right, because Magic, Chuck, MJ, The Mailman, Ewing, The Admiral, Hakeem, Stockton, Bird, Drexler, Dumars, Isiah, etc., etc., etc, would all suck in today's NBA.

Players like Chuck and Malone and David Robinson ( and I love David Robinson ) wouldn't suck - they just wouldn't be nearly as good.

Udoka Azubuike would be a top 5 pick in 1992.

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:06 pm Players have more access to game tape to study previous players, to study current players, there are more coaches, bigger staffs around the players, better nutrition, more competition on every team, better techniques and equipment to get in shape, big players have gotten more skilled, more players are trying to take your spots and so and and so on.

I am comfortable with saying the league overall plays better ball than the 90s.

These are dumb arguments. If Durant played in the 90s he wouldn't have access to those things (I'm skeptical about the extent to which some of these have really changed and made the game better too btw). and if you played Tom Chambers today, he'd have access to all these things. Larry Bird would be better today because they'd tell him to shoot more 3s....it's not that he'd be a better shooter, he'd just change his game to the way it's played today.

The biggest change is the increase in pool size. The game is now global. That inevitably makes the game better, particularly in terms of depth. It also probably increases the number of ELITE players, but I don't think the level of play of the elite players has necessarily changed significantly.

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:10 pm Udoka Azubuike would be a top 5 pick in 1992.

That has to do with style of play, not level of play.

"If Durant played in the 90s he wouldn't have access to those things (I'm skeptical about the extent to which some of these have really changed and made the game better too btw). and if you played Tom Chambers today, he'd have access to all these things."

I'm not arguing that Durant if born in the 70s would be as good as Durant as he is today.

I'm arguing if you teleported Kevin Durant from his peak year ( either 13-14 or 16-17 ) to 1992, he would tear the league apart, much like MJ did. And if you teleported Chuck in his peak year to 2019-20, he'd be less effective/great.

My argument is based on competition today - not competition in the 90s.

It's why I don't think Bill Russell winning all those titles shouldn't vault him to the top of the GOAT rankings.

Time travel!!!!

The other hypothetical ( Kevin Durant being born in 1970 ) is still time travel.
Don't know why you are shouting.

If I could go back to 1995, I would invest all my money on Amazon. I’m the smartest person of all-time! Everyone call me the GOAT!!!

if Durant played in the 90s, he woulda gotten broken in half by the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons (among others)

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:50 pm "If Durant played in the 90s he wouldn't have access to those things (I'm skeptical about the extent to which some of these have really changed and made the game better too btw). and if you played Tom Chambers today, he'd have access to all these things."

I'm not arguing that Durant if born in the 70s would be as good as Durant as he is today.

I'm arguing if you teleported Kevin Durant from his peak year ( either 13-14 or 16-17 ) to 1992, he would tear the league apart, much like MJ did. And if you teleported Chuck in his peak year to 2019-20, he'd be less effective/great.

My argument is based on competition today - not competition in the 90s.

It's why I don't think Bill Russell winning all those titles shouldn't vault him to the top of the GOAT rankings.

What kind of jet lag do you get from teleportation. Does it make you dehydrated? I mean, since they have to IMMEDIATELY play in the game, have you factored that in?

And why can't the coach from today say to Larry Bird, "Hey, let it fly! I want you to shoot a 3 everytime you get a chance." I mean, you don't need to watch tape, or eat kale, or workout with a shake weight to know Bird would score a ton if he attempted 8-10 3pt shots per game.

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:50 pm "If Durant played in the 90s he wouldn't have access to those things (I'm skeptical about the extent to which some of these have really changed and made the game better too btw). and if you played Tom Chambers today, he'd have access to all these things."

I'm not arguing that Durant if born in the 70s would be as good as Durant as he is today.

I'm arguing if you teleported Kevin Durant from his peak year ( either 13-14 or 16-17 ) to 1992, he would tear the league apart, much like MJ did. And if you teleported Chuck in his peak year to 2019-20, he'd be less effective/great.

My argument is based on competition today - not competition in the 90s.

It's why I don't think Bill Russell winning all those titles shouldn't vault him to the top of the GOAT rankings.

Yeah, cause Zion Williamson (Chuck 2.0) is struggling so much.

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:47 pm if Durant played in the 90s, he woulda gotten broken in half by the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons (among others)

It can go both ways. Granted, it's the bubble, but we've seen historically very average players break NBA playoff performance records against today's NBA (Mitchell, Murray, etc).

Two of the most feared defenders this decade are pansy players like Capela and Gobert. A guy like Shaq, Olajuwon, Wilt, etc. would feast.

If today's NBA players were as disproportionately as athletic and good as what these new NBA fans say they are, then two marshmallows like Jokic and Doncic would be riding the Milicic pine rather than being completely unstoppable.

I love the dude, but does Devonte' Graham really average 18 points in a different styled era?

It's nuanced. But, we should be able to agree that great players transcend time. Durant's scoring ability is up there, but maybe his style actually works better in the 2010's than any other era.

Donovan Mitchell and Jamal Murray are not "very average players". They are both top 30ish players in the league.

And Doncic is a 6'7 PG with ridiculous handles and creativity. Just because he doesn't leap like Westbrook doesn't mean he isn't athletic. He certainly isn't a "marshmallow". He is quick and shifty. There is a reason almost nobody can guard him.

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:51 pm

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:50 pm "If Durant played in the 90s he wouldn't have access to those things (I'm skeptical about the extent to which some of these have really changed and made the game better too btw). and if you played Tom Chambers today, he'd have access to all these things."

I'm not arguing that Durant if born in the 70s would be as good as Durant as he is today.

I'm arguing if you teleported Kevin Durant from his peak year ( either 13-14 or 16-17 ) to 1992, he would tear the league apart, much like MJ did. And if you teleported Chuck in his peak year to 2019-20, he'd be less effective/great.

My argument is based on competition today - not competition in the 90s.

It's why I don't think Bill Russell winning all those titles shouldn't vault him to the top of the GOAT rankings.

Yeah, cause Zion Williamson (Chuck 2.0) is struggling so much.

I know Chuck has struggled with being a tub of lard post-basketball, but no need to insult his weight like that.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:14 pm

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:47 pm if Durant played in the 90s, he woulda gotten broken in half by the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons (among others)

It can go both ways. Granted, it's the bubble, but we've seen historically very average players break NBA playoff performance records against today's NBA (Mitchell, Murray, etc).

Two of the most feared defenders this decade are pansy players like Capela and Gobert. A guy like Shaq, Olajuwon, Wilt, etc. would feast.

If today's NBA players were as disproportionately as athletic and good as what these new NBA fans say they are, then two marshmallows like Jokic and Doncic would be riding the Milicic pine rather than being completely unstoppable.

I love the dude, but does Devonte' Graham really average 18 points in a different styled era?

It's nuanced. But, we should be able to agree that great players transcend time. Durant's scoring ability is up there, but maybe his style actually works better in the 2010's than any other era.

honestly, i just felt left out and was trying to make a joke

i haven’t followed the nba seriously since the big 3 left Boston

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:14 pm

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:47 pm if Durant played in the 90s, he woulda gotten broken in half by the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons (among others)

It can go both ways. Granted, it's the bubble, but we've seen historically very average players break NBA playoff performance records against today's NBA (Mitchell, Murray, etc).

Two of the most feared defenders this decade are pansy players like Capela and Gobert. A guy like Shaq, Olajuwon, Wilt, etc. would feast.

If today's NBA players were as disproportionately as athletic and good as what these new NBA fans say they are, then two marshmallows like Jokic and Doncic would be riding the Milicic pine rather than being completely unstoppable.

I love the dude, but does Devonte' Graham really average 18 points in a different styled era?

It's nuanced. But, we should be able to agree that great players transcend time. Durant's scoring ability is up there, but maybe his style actually works better in the 2010's than any other era.

Right, we're talking about, at least, two different things here simultaneously. The evolution of the game, and the evolution of the athlete.

It's easy to make assumptions about guys. I mean, if Paul Millsap had played in the 90's it'd be easy to write him off as a guy who couldn't make it in today's game...we'd go, "he's a 6'7" PF who's not a huge threat from the perimeter"...but he's actually an all star in today's game. If you saw a 6'11" white C who's not a great leaper playing in the 90's it'd be easy to say he'd struggle in today's game, but Domantas Sabonas is doing pretty well.

Fit is huge too. I mean, you can have a guy be an all-star on one team and then get traded and suddenly he's a role player or coming off the bench. You get a coach who gives you the green light and you look great, you get a coach who doesn't like the cut of your jib and you don't play much. Those have nothing to do with era.