Israel/Palestine

[KUTradition]

oh well

[jfish26]

Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... d-or-fuel/



(Here’s your friendly reminder that roughly half the population of the Gaza Strip are children.)

Horrible.

There are only bad answers here. Horrors will result from this siege. Horrors would (or will) result from this becoming a broader regional (or worse) conflict.

I think, for a great many reasons, a great many people will want to compare this to Ukraine. I think, for a great many reasons, it's apples and hand grenades. There are parallels - and perhaps overlap in the players - but I don't think there is a like-for-like comparison to be made at any level below the things-go-boom surface level.

Fill in the blank:

“I strongly condemn ____________'s oppression and occupation of ___________.

The people of ___________ have a right to self-determination, and to resist the attempted annexation by the _________.”

You are wrong to compare this situation to Ukraine in this way.

[DCHawk1]

What the hell. I'll give it a try.

Fill in the blank:

“I strongly condemn _the Jordanian people___________'s oppression and occupation of _rightfully and fairly conquered Israeli land__________.

The people of __Israel_________ have a right to self-determination, and to resist the attempted annexation by the _Arab world________.”

What do I win?

[Sparko]

Imagine a truly post-Cold War world where Qus makes sense.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... d-or-fuel/



(Here’s your friendly reminder that roughly half the population of the Gaza Strip are children.)

My non-Jewish co-worker spent about a week in Palestine a week ago.
After what she told me, I think she would agree with me if I told you perhaps you might want to take that up with Hamas. They give less of a fuck about the majority of the children in Palestine than the Israeli's do.

[DCHawk1]

I think she would agree with me if I told you perhaps you might want to take that up with Hamas.

Exfuckingactly.

The "Palestinians" have been exploited and oppressed for 75 years -- mostly by their fellow Arabs.

[jfish26]

I am very glad we have experienced and sober people in charge for this.

Wait.

Wut?

I was more getting at this aspect of things.

The Israel of 2023 — in the months that preceded the Gaza disaster — has been a domestic political nightmare. The country was more divided than I have seen it in more than 40 years of reporting there. The security establishment — meaning Mossad, military intelligence and the domestic security service known as Shin Bet — was bitterly opposed to the fragile government headed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. And it showed.

The intelligence elite believed that Netanyahu was wrecking Israel by assaulting its Supreme Court. I say that because several senior Mossad officers, including a former director, conveyed that message to me directly in recent months. The security elite is secular; it lives in Tel Aviv and Haifa; it listens to Mozart. It deeply resented Bibi’s alliance with ultra-Orthodox parties who generally don’t serve in the military and espouse a very different, much more religious Israel than the one created in courageous service by the security barons and their predecessors.

Israel seemed to be coming apart in the months before Hamas fighters broke through the Gaza cage. Thousands of Israelis were marching in the streets of Tel Aviv to protest Netanyahu’s attempt to alter what they saw as the fundamental character of the state. Did that political chaos contribute to the Gaza attacks? I don’t know. But, surely, the domestic feuds of the past few months might have led Hamas and its backers in Tehran to believe that Israel was internally weak and, perhaps, vulnerable.

America before 9/11 knew something of that fragility. President George W. Bush came to office after a contested election that could only be resolved by the Supreme Court. Our divisions then seem like nothing compared with now. But the 9/11 Commission documented how the Bush team didn’t pay adequate attention to warnings from CIA Director George Tenet and his analysts of a possible al-Qaeda attack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... e-failure/

[DCHawk1]

Oops.

https://twitter.com/MrbamNews/status/17 ... 7980735664

[ramjet]

Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... d-or-fuel/



(Here’s your friendly reminder that roughly half the population of the Gaza Strip are children.)

My non-Jewish co-worker spent about a week in Palestine a week ago.
After what she told me, I think she would agree with me if I told you perhaps you might want to take that up with Hamas. They give less of a fuck about the majority of the children in Palestine than the Israeli's do.

This!

[mjl2]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/08/middleea ... index.html

"Salim Hussein, 55, lost his home when his building was targeted in an Israeli airstrike. He lived on the first floor and told CNN that he and his family were given warnings by Israel just moments before the building was struck."

This is the most fundamental difference between the two sides

[ousdahl]

Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... d-or-fuel/



(Here’s your friendly reminder that roughly half the population of the Gaza Strip are children.)

My non-Jewish co-worker spent about a week in Palestine a week ago.
After what she told me, I think she would agree with me if I told you perhaps you might want to take that up with Hamas. They give less of a fuck about the majority of the children in Palestine than the Israeli's do.

I don't doubt it, gutter.

And I'd hate to sound insensitive here. I feel for everyone affected, both directly and indirectly, on all sides. I have this hunch that at the end of the day, most Israeli people, most Palestinian people, are just people, man. They don't want any of this, nor should they, or we.

PS - thanks for always being cool to me dude, even though I can be annoying sometimes.

[ousdahl]

Horrible.

There are only bad answers here. Horrors will result from this siege. Horrors would (or will) result from this becoming a broader regional (or worse) conflict.

I think, for a great many reasons, a great many people will want to compare this to Ukraine. I think, for a great many reasons, it's apples and hand grenades. There are parallels - and perhaps overlap in the players - but I don't think there is a like-for-like comparison to be made at any level below the things-go-boom surface level.

Fill in the blank:

“I strongly condemn ____________'s oppression and occupation of ___________.

The people of ___________ have a right to self-determination, and to resist the attempted annexation by the _________.”

You are wrong to compare this situation to Ukraine in this way.

I didn't say anything about Ukraine bro.

but since you brought it up - why's that?

[ousdahl]

Q thinks people without passports in a non-country that is blockaded on two sides (one side being their fellow Arabs in Egypt) and who earn less than $5000 a year and are taxed oppressively, in addition to being forced to pay bribes and protection money, should just get up and leave.

again, I was asking rhetorically. Q knew the conditions were like that there.

I mean, pretty much every human rights organization in the world identifies the place as an apartheid state, right?

Please help Q understand how that's somehow not like completely missing from the narrative right now.

[ousdahl]

oh well

I'm sorry.


Happy Indigenous Peoples Day btw.

[jfish26]

Fill in the blank:

“I strongly condemn ____________'s oppression and occupation of ___________.

The people of ___________ have a right to self-determination, and to resist the attempted annexation by the _________.”

You are wrong to compare this situation to Ukraine in this way.

I didn't say anything about Ukraine bro.

but since you brought it up - why's that?

You responded to my post cautioning against comparing this to Ukraine.

You are way way way WAY over your skis on this one.

[ousdahl]

ok then.

care to spare the condescension and just try to answer the question?

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... d-or-fuel/



(Here’s your friendly reminder that roughly half the population of the Gaza Strip are children.)

My non-Jewish co-worker spent about a week in Palestine a week ago.
After what she told me, I think she would agree with me if I told you perhaps you might want to take that up with Hamas. They give less of a fuck about the majority of the children in Palestine than the Israeli's do.

I don't doubt it, gutter.

And I'd hate to sound insensitive here. I feel for everyone affected, both directly and indirectly, on all sides. I have this hunch that at the end of the day, most Israeli people, most Palestinian people, are just people, man. They don't want any of this, nor should they, or we.

PS - thanks for always being cool to me dude, even though I can be annoying sometimes.

It's a shitty situation for everyone and the sad thing is that I agree with you - that the people who suffer the most are the people who just want to be people - who don't want any of this. Free people living in peace.

I probably haven't "always" been cool to you but I hope I have been respectful most of the time. You have not earned my disrespect. One person on here has.
We can all be annoying sometimes. One person too many times.

[jfish26]

ok then.

care to spare the condescension and just try to answer the question?

I and others have spared quite a lot, in terms of entertaining your leap off the high dive into the deep end on Ukraine (calling other posters nazis, man? really?) and apparent desire to double down here. I really hope it’s just commitment to the bit.

Suffice it to say, though, that a nuclear superpower starting a land war of aggression against a neighbor is not remotely comparable to a terrorist organization (with backing that is not yet clear) commencing massive terror strikes against a sovereign nation, in what appears (to me anyway) to be an attempt at baiting the region (or more) into a very-possibly-nuclear land war between/among as-yet non-combatants.

And if you thought the geopolitical and cultural backstory in Ukraine is fraught…you have no idea what you’re in for on this one (and I am very concerned, based on your apparent preferences in where you get information on Ukraine, about the rabbit holes you’ll find yourself down on this one).

I mean this sincerely: I’m disheartened by where you’ve gone on Ukraine, and I’m not encouraged here. It’s not an agree/disagree thing at all. It’s a more fundamental, step by step descent into the qrazy. And I don’t want that for you.

[ousdahl]

(from one of the largest and oldest newspapers in Israel)

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editori ... fd1c880000

The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.

[jfish26]

(from one of the largest and oldest newspapers in Israel)

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editori ... fd1c880000

The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.

There will be plenty of blame to go around here. Israel doesn’t get to play the pure righteous indignation card. Nor do I think it is accurate, at all, to say that what you are seeing here, though, is a righteous uprising by oppressed Palestinians.