Kansas Crimson

I'm also iffy on continuing to cite the 2012 team.

It's a great reminder of what can be done if you play to 100% of your potential.

It's not a good recipe to reach the title game. That team obviously had some major flaws and were not great offensively by Kansas standards. If anything, it should remind us how small the margin for error can be and how thin the line between good seasons and bad seasons can be.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:47 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:43 am We went to a national title game with Justin Wesley and Zac Efron as our first big and guard off the bench. Depth is dramatically overrated.

When was the last time anyone feels like we lost in a tourney game because we didn't have enough depth and not because multiple starters all had terrible days on the same day? I'd love it if Udeh was balling out right now and I am 100% confident that Self would also love that. But if he is playing more then perhaps Adams is playing less and then maybe we aren't seeing Adams blossom given the opportunity he has right now. If you play someone more, then someone else has to play LESS.

Did KJ playing microscopic minutes last year prevent him from being a stud this year? Nope, doesn't seem to have. Self seems to develop his talent just fine.

I think it's less about depth and more about not having a guy that can score from the block--or more generally, the traditional advantages of having a true 5-man.

There are missing pieces to this team. But, that doesn't necessarily disqualify us from every success, just makes it less likely.

How many of the serious contenders this season have a true 5 man who is performing better than KJ Adams?

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:57 am I'm also iffy on continuing to cite the 2012 team.

It's a great reminder of what can be done if you play to 100% of your potential.

It's not a good recipe to reach the title game. That team obviously had some major flaws and were not great offensively by Kansas standards. If anything, it should remind us how small the margin for error can be and how thin the line between good seasons and bad seasons can be.

2012 is just a great reminder to me that Bill Self is an excellent coach who can scheme up success with just about any roster he finds himself with. Sure, I'd love it if KU was 2 deep at every position and we had an embarrassment of talent riches but there are no teams like that these days. KJ has been fantastic and if the core KU rotation plays a little better than last night then I think they can beat any team in the sport this season.

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:58 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:47 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:43 am We went to a national title game with Justin Wesley and Zac Efron as our first big and guard off the bench. Depth is dramatically overrated.

When was the last time anyone feels like we lost in a tourney game because we didn't have enough depth and not because multiple starters all had terrible days on the same day? I'd love it if Udeh was balling out right now and I am 100% confident that Self would also love that. But if he is playing more then perhaps Adams is playing less and then maybe we aren't seeing Adams blossom given the opportunity he has right now. If you play someone more, then someone else has to play LESS.

Did KJ playing microscopic minutes last year prevent him from being a stud this year? Nope, doesn't seem to have. Self seems to develop his talent just fine.

I think it's less about depth and more about not having a guy that can score from the block--or more generally, the traditional advantages of having a true 5-man.

There are missing pieces to this team. But, that doesn't necessarily disqualify us from every success, just makes it less likely.

How many of the serious contenders this season have a true 5 man who is performing better than KJ Adams?

IDK, but I think that's a pretty big strawman argument.

KU and Bill's teams usually do better with at least one capable big. Ideally, this team would have one. But, no, it's not condition precedent to having a good season, and I don't think it's been argued as such. It is ideal, it would make us better and more whole. I don't think that can be denied.

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:01 pm

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:57 am I'm also iffy on continuing to cite the 2012 team.

It's a great reminder of what can be done if you play to 100% of your potential.

It's not a good recipe to reach the title game. That team obviously had some major flaws and were not great offensively by Kansas standards. If anything, it should remind us how small the margin for error can be and how thin the line between good seasons and bad seasons can be.

2012 is just a great reminder to me that Bill Self is an excellent coach who can scheme up success with just about any roster he finds himself with. Sure, I'd love it if KU was 2 deep at every position and we had an embarrassment of talent riches but there are no teams like that these days. KJ has been fantastic and if the core KU rotation plays a little better than last night then I think they can beat any team in the sport this season.

I mostly agree. I do think the personnel is there to have a capable backup to make us better.

"How many of the serious contenders this season have a true 5 man who is performing better than KJ Adams?"

Depends on serious contenders.
Top 10 in KenPom: Purdue. Uconn. Gonzaga.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:03 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:58 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:47 am

I think it's less about depth and more about not having a guy that can score from the block--or more generally, the traditional advantages of having a true 5-man.

There are missing pieces to this team. But, that doesn't necessarily disqualify us from every success, just makes it less likely.

How many of the serious contenders this season have a true 5 man who is performing better than KJ Adams?

IDK, but I think that's a pretty big strawman argument.

KU and Bill's teams usually do better with at least one capable big. Ideally, this team would have one. But, no, it's not condition precedent to having a good season, and I don't think it's been argued as such. It is ideal, it would make us better and more whole. I don't think that can be denied.

Sure, every really good player "makes us better". I'd love if we had five more, but I count Wilson and Adams as "capable bigs" in this lineup. I get that they aren't posting guys up old school but they fill that role for me of scoring tough buckets in the paint and getting rebounds.

(Queue all of the "but Wilson is a wing....." arguments)

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:11 pm

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:03 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:58 am

How many of the serious contenders this season have a true 5 man who is performing better than KJ Adams?

IDK, but I think that's a pretty big strawman argument.

KU and Bill's teams usually do better with at least one capable big. Ideally, this team would have one. But, no, it's not condition precedent to having a good season, and I don't think it's been argued as such. It is ideal, it would make us better and more whole. I don't think that can be denied.

Sure, every really good player "makes us better". I'd love if we had five more, but I count Wilson and Adams as "capable bigs" in this lineup. I get that they aren't posting guys up old school but they fill that role for me of scoring tough buckets in the paint and getting rebounds.

(Queue all of the "but Wilson is a wing....." arguments)

Usually off putbacks, but sure, this is no knock on Wilson or Adams.

But, back to depth, if you want to have a complete team, it's ideal not to have to play eeny, meeny, miny, moe when your 5 man is in foul trouble or fouls out. I think we were all wondering who Self was going to go with last night when that happened. Ideally, we wouldn't.

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:01 pm

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:57 am I'm also iffy on continuing to cite the 2012 team.

It's a great reminder of what can be done if you play to 100% of your potential.

It's not a good recipe to reach the title game. That team obviously had some major flaws and were not great offensively by Kansas standards. If anything, it should remind us how small the margin for error can be and how thin the line between good seasons and bad seasons can be.

2012 is just a great reminder to me that Bill Self is an excellent coach who can scheme up success with just about any roster he finds himself with. Sure, I'd love it if KU was 2 deep at every position and we had an embarrassment of talent riches but there are no teams like that these days. KJ has been fantastic and if the core KU rotation plays a little better than last night then I think they can beat any team in the sport this season.

2012 could be an argument that you give Self a couple of all-American types and a few more veteran role players and he can fuck shit up.

Or, the other side of the coin - 2012 could be an argument for just how important depth can be. Maybe if we had BMac off the bench (instead of Zach Effron lol) and some actual big (instead of KY jelly and Langford’s little cousin…heck, good chance true freshman Jamari would have been an upgrade), and we’d likely be hanging more than just another FF banner that year

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:07 pm "How many of the serious contenders this season have a true 5 man who is performing better than KJ Adams?"

Depends on serious contenders.
Top 10 in KenPom: Purdue. Uconn. Gonzaga.

Yep, just not much out there. KU's roster is more than capable of a deep run. They just need to stop with all of the self inflicted mistakes. We can wish life was different and that being anointed a McDonald's AA magically makes a big capable of figuring out WTF to do in Self's system but the list of freshmen bigs who have been able to do it under Self is not very long.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:57 am I'm also iffy on continuing to cite the 2012 team.

It's a great reminder of what can be done if you play to 100% of your potential.

It's not a good recipe to reach the title game. That team obviously had some major flaws and were not great offensively by Kansas standards. If anything, it should remind us how small the margin for error can be and how thin the line between good seasons and bad seasons can be.

"I made it all the way from Kansas City to San Diego in a car with bald tires" isn't a justification for leaving on another road trip in a car with bald tires.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:15 pm2012 could be an argument that you give Self a couple of all-American types and a few more veteran role players and he can fuck shit up.

This is how I choose to remember it.

For all the complaints today, and some have been made by me, Bill's a master at adapting to his personnel. He hits at like a 90% clip on that season over season.

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:15 pmmakes a big capable of figuring out WTF to do in Self's system but the list of freshmen bigs who have been able to do it under Self is not very long.

Chicken, egg, and such. I think that's the entire argument here.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:18 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:15 pmmakes a big capable of figuring out WTF to do in Self's system but the list of freshmen bigs who have been able to do it under Self is not very long.

Chicken, egg, and such. I think that's the entire argument here.

I have made it pretty clear that I believe that all players have the opportunity to prove in practice whether or not they are capable. I think it's more likely that the struggles to perform the high degree of difficulty of what they have to learn and understand about the role and their assignment while in practice is more why these guys aren't playing more and less because "Bill Self is just stubborn and can't develop young bigs" as we see bigs in their sophomore and junior seasons flourish into excellent players frequently while we rarely see freshmen bigs flourish into excellent players during their freshman season season.

What's funny about this whole conversation is that in previous years, I have sat here and listened to people complain about how stubborn Self is in relying on bigs who aren't up to the task instead of trusting his more capable smaller lineups to shoot threes. Now Self is trusting his more capable smaller lineups and everyone is mad he isn't stubbornly forcing it to a less capable freshman big.

If there IS a parallel between 2012 and this year, it’s that both rosters had a knack for having to play themselves out of a hole.

But I dunno if that’s even unique to to just 12 and 23, either

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:30 pmWhat's funny about this whole conversation is that in previous years, I have sat here and listened to people complain about how stubborn Self is in relying on bigs who aren't up to the task instead of trusting his more capable smaller lineups to shoot threes. Now Self is trusting his more capable smaller lineups and everyone is mad he isn't stubbornly forcing it to a less capable freshman big.

I don't think that's the argument either. This isn't about KJ.

It is very much on him to get someone ready. It's true in most seasons with bigs that we almost always have an upperclassman big(s) that we can readily play. Sometimes they're studs and sometimes they're safety nets. Don't feel like either of those are present this season, whether they're upperclassmen or underclassmen. That has to fall on the staff but doesn't take away all the other great things they've done.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:39 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:30 pmWhat's funny about this whole conversation is that in previous years, I have sat here and listened to people complain about how stubborn Self is in relying on bigs who aren't up to the task instead of trusting his more capable smaller lineups to shoot threes. Now Self is trusting his more capable smaller lineups and everyone is mad he isn't stubbornly forcing it to a less capable freshman big.

I don't think that's the argument either. This isn't about KJ.

It is very much on him to get someone ready. It's true in most seasons with bigs that we almost always have an upperclassman big(s) that we can readily play. Sometimes they're studs and sometimes they're safety nets. Don't feel like either of those are present this season, whether they're upperclassmen or underclassmen. That has to fall on the staff but doesn't take away all the other great things they've done.

Fair enough.

I don't come out of last night with any concerns. I am bummed we lost to those turds but we just had a game where 3 starters fouled out and we missed 23 threes and we lost on the road in OT by 1 point to a good ranked team that had a random bench guy have one of the best games of his career.

We been giving a lotta love to KJ, but…

What are the odds he goes all-conference?

Does 16ppg (in league play so far, plus 4 boreds) do it?

JWill, Markquis Nowell, Mike Miles, Keyonte George and probably someone like Marcus Carr.
Keeps those numbers up and he's likely 2nd team.

yea, I was gonna say prob at least 3rd, maybe even 2nd team