Kansas Crimson

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:52 pm Seahawk and I saw eye-to-eye on very little, but one thing was the disgraceful state of America's prisons. NO ONE deserves to get raped in prison. NO ONE deserves to be mis/maltreated by guards/administration. And NO ONE deserves to get shivved. Believing otherwise is to believe that the system can and should be rigged to mete out torture, not punishment, to those we deem deserving, in contravention of the foundational principles of self-governance.

Which is to say, it makes perfect sense that Illy would believe otherwise.

Chauvin deserved it. Larry Nassar deserved it.

I don't understand the sympathy for terrible criminals who we know are guilty.

I agree that not everyone in prison would deserve those things. But those 2? They deserve(d) it. And I am glad they both survived so they can continue to be miserable in prison.

Overlanders insight into how/why Chauvin was moved from PC, very likely at his request, and knowing this was a likely outcome, makes me wonder if maybe Chauvin wants to die and can't do the years and doesn't have the stomach to kill himself. Or maybe he was dumb enough and arrogant enough to think the other inmates would let him slide.

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:53 am Chauvin deserved it. Larry Nassar deserved it.

I don't understand the sympathy for terrible criminals who we know are guilty.

I agree that not everyone in prison would deserve those things. But those 2? They deserve(d) it. And I am glad they both survived so they can continue to be miserable in prison.

Overlanders insight into how/why Chauvin was moved from PC, very likely at his request, and knowing this was a likely outcome, makes me wonder if maybe Chauvin wants to die and can't do the years and doesn't have the stomach to kill himself. Or maybe he was dumb enough and arrogant enough to think the other inmates would let him slide.

So...given that Chauvin was charged with and convicted of UNINTENTIONAL second and third-degree murder, I'm wondering if you can explain what makes him equivalent to Nassar and, thus, deserving of murder (or attempted murder, in this case)?

Did it look unintentional when you watched him kneel on his neck for what seemed like an eternity?

I think this is an instance where it's "okay" to disagree.

I respect your opinion on "prison justice". In many/most instances I would agree.

Emotive moral reasoning is a blight on civilization.

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:53 am Chauvin deserved it. Larry Nassar deserved it.

I don't understand the sympathy for terrible criminals who we know are guilty.

I agree that not everyone in prison would deserve those things. But those 2? They deserve(d) it. And I am glad they both survived so they can continue to be miserable in prison.

Overlanders insight into how/why Chauvin was moved from PC, very likely at his request, and knowing this was a likely outcome, makes me wonder if maybe Chauvin wants to die and can't do the years and doesn't have the stomach to kill himself. Or maybe he was dumb enough and arrogant enough to think the other inmates would let him slide.

Again, I'm not sure what to do with "deserved." I, personally, do not think I gain anything at all from Chauvin being dead now or in six months or six years or sixty. Society doesn't, either, aside from some incremental cost savings I guess. I don't know how I'd feel were George Floyd a friend or relative.

I do, 100%, know that accepting "prison justice" in ANY circumstance necessarily means accepting the inevitability of a genuinely innocent person being on the receiving end of prison justice.

And I find that risk (eventuality) to be intolerable in light of the, to me, extremely limited benefits of a "deserving" person getting stabbed or killed in prison.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:52 pm Seahawk and I saw eye-to-eye on very little, but one thing was the disgraceful state of America's prisons. NO ONE deserves to get raped in prison. NO ONE deserves to be mis/maltreated by guards/administration. And NO ONE deserves to get shivved. Believing otherwise is to believe that the system can and should be rigged to mete out torture, not punishment, to those we deem deserving, in contravention of the foundational principles of self-governance.

Agreed that no one deserves it.
But, you cannot house hundreds of people, a majority of which have committed physical violence prior to arrival, put them in cages….and still filter out the savagery that is prevalent when movement occurs.

It really is nothing less than a Gladiator school.

That Shawshank redemption line comes to mind - about how Andy was straight as an arrow on the outside, and didn’t become a crook until he got to prison.

Also, some comment about how Chauvin was stabbed on Black Friday.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:48 am That Shawshank redemption line comes to mind - about how Andy was straight as an arrow on the outside, and didn’t become a crook until he got to prison.

Also, some comment about how Chauvin was stabbed on Black Friday.

If Floyd was white the whole scenario would have been different.

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:11 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:48 am That Shawshank redemption line comes to mind - about how Andy was straight as an arrow on the outside, and didn’t become a crook until he got to prison.

Also, some comment about how Chauvin was stabbed on Black Friday.

If Floyd was white the whole scenario would have been different.

But, he isn’t.

So why bring it up?

Overlander wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:06 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:52 pm Seahawk and I saw eye-to-eye on very little, but one thing was the disgraceful state of America's prisons. NO ONE deserves to get raped in prison. NO ONE deserves to be mis/maltreated by guards/administration. And NO ONE deserves to get shivved. Believing otherwise is to believe that the system can and should be rigged to mete out torture, not punishment, to those we deem deserving, in contravention of the foundational principles of self-governance.

Agreed that no one deserves it.
But, you cannot house hundreds of people, a majority of which have committed physical violence prior to arrival, put them in cages….and still filter out the savagery that is prevalent when movement occurs.

It really is nothing less than a Gladiator school.

I don't doubt you're right.

Our moral responsibility as a society is to try to protect inmates from prison justice. Whether or not we succeed is another question.

I have a lot of things on my moral responsibility list above protecting inmates who committed terrible crimes.

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:37 am I am surprised that so many of you are surprised that he got stabbed, and offended that I think he deserved it. He's a white cop in prison for a very public killing of a black person.

Did you guys think the other inmates were just going to let him slide?

From what I can see here, no one is surprised that it happened.

Chauvin does not "deserve to be stabbed". He deserves to be treated like a human with basic human rights even if he failed to treat someone else with that same basic level of respect. I refuse to let his lack of morals negatively impact my morals. How you treat those who you have power over is a fundamental fiber of moral character and is one of the reasons why Chauvin's crime was especially heinous. Now that "We The People" have power over Chauvin, we should continue to expect those in power to grant a basic human right to life to those they have power over like we expected Chauvin to do for George Floyd.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:39 pm

Overlander wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:06 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:52 pm Seahawk and I saw eye-to-eye on very little, but one thing was the disgraceful state of America's prisons. NO ONE deserves to get raped in prison. NO ONE deserves to be mis/maltreated by guards/administration. And NO ONE deserves to get shivved. Believing otherwise is to believe that the system can and should be rigged to mete out torture, not punishment, to those we deem deserving, in contravention of the foundational principles of self-governance.

Agreed that no one deserves it.
But, you cannot house hundreds of people, a majority of which have committed physical violence prior to arrival, put them in cages….and still filter out the savagery that is prevalent when movement occurs.

It really is nothing less than a Gladiator school.

I don't doubt you're right.

Our moral responsibility as a society is to try to protect inmates from prison justice. Whether or not we succeed is another question.

100% agree. We are not animals and should strive for an agreed upon basic level of care and humanity in our prisons even for those who have been found guilty of the most depraved, morally repugnant behavior.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:39 pm

Overlander wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:06 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:52 pm Seahawk and I saw eye-to-eye on very little, but one thing was the disgraceful state of America's prisons. NO ONE deserves to get raped in prison. NO ONE deserves to be mis/maltreated by guards/administration. And NO ONE deserves to get shivved. Believing otherwise is to believe that the system can and should be rigged to mete out torture, not punishment, to those we deem deserving, in contravention of the foundational principles of self-governance.

Agreed that no one deserves it.
But, you cannot house hundreds of people, a majority of which have committed physical violence prior to arrival, put them in cages….and still filter out the savagery that is prevalent when movement occurs.

It really is nothing less than a Gladiator school.

I don't doubt you're right.

Our moral responsibility as a society is to try to protect inmates from prison justice. Whether or not we succeed is another question.

Agreed.
Also, there is often a thin line between the morals of captor and captive in that environment as well.

I think our prison guards should focus on protecting the inmates who actually deserve protecting first and foremost since protecting everyone at every moment is not realistic.


Anyway, fantasy land is fun. But prison justice always has and always will exist. Especially for rapists/child molestors and white cops who publicly kill black people. No way to reduce it to 0. Our prisons are relatively safe. Only 143 murders in United States prisons in 2022.

I've no doubt most of you have seen this quote before, and don't need to see it again.

I've also little to no doubt, that those who most need to see it, will gain little to nothing from seeing it.

Such is life.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

Good quote. Nothing I have said here makes me feel like I've become a monster.

Chauvin should have lived by that quote. Now he gets to live (for now) with the monsters he was sworn/paid to protect us from.

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:21 pm I think our prison guards should focus on protecting the inmates who actually deserve protecting first and foremost since protecting everyone at every moment is not realistic.


Anyway, fantasy land is fun. But prison justice always has and always will exist. Especially for rapists/child molestors and white cops who publicly kill black people. No way to reduce it to 0. Our prisons are relatively safe. Only 143 murders in United States prisons in 2022.

Yeah, I'll take a hard pass on letting those employed as prison guards have any say in who does and does not deserve to be protected.

All we're saying is that we need to constantly evaluate and improve our systems with the intention to try to keep all inmates safe and to not look at some of them as not worthy of that consideration. All humans deserve that if they are incarcerated.

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 4:07 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:21 pm I think our prison guards should focus on protecting the inmates who actually deserve protecting first and foremost since protecting everyone at every moment is not realistic.


Anyway, fantasy land is fun. But prison justice always has and always will exist. Especially for rapists/child molestors and white cops who publicly kill black people. No way to reduce it to 0. Our prisons are relatively safe. Only 143 murders in United States prisons in 2022.

Yeah, I'll take a hard pass on letting those employed as prison guards have any say in who does and does not deserve to be protected.

All we're saying is that we need to constantly evaluate and improve our systems with the intention to try to keep all inmates safe and to not look at some of them as not worthy of that consideration. All humans deserve that if they are incarcerated.

I get what you're (and they're) saying, I have already agreed with a lot of it. It's not complicated.

I personally don't feel all humans who are incarcerated deserve to be safe from harm. I think "SOME" inmates, NOT "all" or "most" or even "many", deserve to endure the prison justice they inevitably receive. No need to go round and round about it. You came a few hours too late for that probably. The other posters already covered everything you have said since they feel the same as you, you're just repeating them at this point. I am comfortable with a certain amount of "prison justice", just as I am comfortable with a certain amount of "street justice". We all have a different appetite for violence and it's place in society.

Omar says a mans got to have a code. I agree with Omar.


But I do think it's funny out one side of your mouth you make a degrading comment about prison guards and the other side of your mouth you're expecting them to do the impossible task of reduce violent crime inside prisons to 0.