Kansas Crimson

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:21 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:45 pm At a minimum, there should be extra time in the second leg, and perhaps instead of some weird hypothetical advantage, the benefactor team should just get a deemed goal going into that extra time. In this example, if regular time had ended with a 2-2 tie last week, then extra time would begin with the score being 3-2 Portland. Straight rules from there (including PKs if KC scores one more goal than Portland in extra time).

I really like this idea.

Um, what? You want to give out artificial goals??

Cascadia wrote: ↑Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:12 pm

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:21 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:45 pm At a minimum, there should be extra time in the second leg, and perhaps instead of some weird hypothetical advantage, the benefactor team should just get a deemed goal going into that extra time. In this example, if regular time had ended with a 2-2 tie last week, then extra time would begin with the score being 3-2 Portland. Straight rules from there (including PKs if KC scores one more goal than Portland in extra time).

I really like this idea.

Um, what? You want to give out artificial goals??

Obviously won’t work but it’s an idea that’s better than the current format. I just can’t stand this current format. It gives the better team little to no advatange. That doesn’t happen in any other sport. Period. No way should Sporting lose on a 1-1 draw at home after a 0-0 draw on the road. Just doesn’t make sense. Absolutely nonsense.

I don’t how to do it, but it has to change in some form or fashion.

how do the european leagues do it?

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:08 am how do the european leagues do it?

Almost everyone uses the away goal rule. It’s silly Americans who can’t wrap their heads around the concept. Most commonly after being salty that their team lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_goals_rule

I think the Champions League does the same format in their knockout stages. But maybe MLS just needs to go away with playoffs being a defining result of season. Do like the major leagues like Premier, Bundesliga, Serie A and La Liga Just have everyone play each other both home and away. And whoever has most points by the end of it, wins. The top 3 teams get more allocation money for transfers and all that.

And then the next year, the top 8 teams the play a dual leg thing like the format now, but it just be extra icing on the cake and not the end-all result for an entire season of hard work going down the drain from 2 draws.

I mean KC played 34 games, finished 3rd in MLS overall, and the season feels like a failure. Something ain’t right.

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:36 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:08 am how do the european leagues do it?

Almost everyone uses the away goal rule. It’s silly Americans who can’t wrap their heads around the concept. Most commonly after being salty that their team lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_goals_rule

But most of them do it on knockout stages like Champions League. Icing on the cake from previous season.

It just feels weird that SKC worked their asses off for 34 games. And then the season feels like a failure because they had basically had 2 draws, but allowed more goals at home then they scored on the road.

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:39 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:36 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:08 am how do the european leagues do it?

Almost everyone uses the away goal rule. It’s silly Americans who can’t wrap their heads around the concept. Most commonly after being salty that their team lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_goals_rule

But most of them do it on knockout stages like Champions League. Icing on the cake from previous season.

It just feels weird that SKC worked their asses off for 34 games. And then the season feels like a failure because they had basically had 2 draws, but allowed more goals at home then they scored on the road.

Portland won 3-2 at KC

Right?
KC lost. At home. There's not a lot of excuses there.
I don't want to end a season without a playoff - the system is fine as it is.

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:49 am

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:39 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:36 am

Almost everyone uses the away goal rule. It’s silly Americans who can’t wrap their heads around the concept. Most commonly after being salty that their team lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_goals_rule

But most of them do it on knockout stages like Champions League. Icing on the cake from previous season.

It just feels weird that SKC worked their asses off for 34 games. And then the season feels like a failure because they had basically had 2 draws, but allowed more goals at home then they scored on the road.

Portland won 3-2 at KC

The score doesn't matter in the discussion of the away goal rule; the away goal rule clearly bent how both matches were played. In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a factor that causes a playoff game to be played under fundamentally different circumstances than a regular season game; you wouldn't, for instance, give everyone in college basketball six fouls in the tournament.

Of course this isn't always possible - baseball, for instance, is a vastly different game in the playoffs than in the regular season, because the frequent off days blunt the value of rotation depth.

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:36 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:08 am how do the european leagues do it?

Almost everyone uses the away goal rule. It’s silly Americans who can’t wrap their heads around the concept. Most commonly after being salty that their team lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_goals_rule

Again: no one is having trouble wrapping their heads around the concept. I understand the rule. I just don't think the rule is something that's a worthy carryover from the European leagues (including for many of the reasons described in this thread).

I just struggle to see the advantage conferred under the rule on the team that demonstrated, over the course of a very long regular season, that it was the better side. I don't know the perfect answer (besides going to best-of-[odd number] series), but I think there has to be a better path than, following a tie in the first leg, a tie in the second leg means the worse regular season team wins the series.

That is dumb.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:57 am Right?
KC lost. At home. There's not a lot of excuses there.
I don't want to end a season without a playoff - the system is fine as it is.

The score was 2-2 when KC had everyone up and Portland scored an easy goal in final minutes. One that wouldn’t have happened if KC wasn’t going all out for a score.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:10 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:36 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:08 am how do the european leagues do it?

Almost everyone uses the away goal rule. It’s silly Americans who can’t wrap their heads around the concept. Most commonly after being salty that their team lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_goals_rule

Again: no one is having trouble wrapping their heads around the concept. I understand the rule. I just don't think the rule is something that's a worthy carryover from the European leagues (including for many of the reasons described in this thread).

I just struggle to see the advantage conferred under the rule on the team that demonstrated, over the course of a very long regular season, that it was the better side. I don't know the perfect answer (besides going to best-of-[odd number] series), but I think there has to be a better path than, following a tie in the first leg, a tie in the second leg means the worse regular season team wins the series.

That is dumb.

My thoughts exactly. On a season over 34 games and went from March to November basically had nothing to show for it. Even if KC didn’t lose at home 3-2 on a pointless goal at the end, it still would have not advanced on a 2-2 draw at home after drawing on the road 0-0. Pointless.

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:16 am

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:57 am Right?
KC lost. At home. There's not a lot of excuses there.
I don't want to end a season without a playoff - the system is fine as it is.

The score was 2-2 when KC had everyone up and Portland scored an easy goal in final minutes. One that wouldn’t have happened if KC wasn’t going all out for a score.

You guys don’t get the point of my post. It doesn’t matter KC lost 3-2. The score is irrelevant. Portland wouldn’t have scored a last minute cheap goal if it went to extras on a 2-2 draw. KC had 10 guys up. Left Portland open for easy counter when they got the ball.

Without the away goal rule, you have no idea how either game would have played out. KC may very well have still lost the series.

So that point is irrelevant to this conversation.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:10 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:36 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:08 am how do the european leagues do it?

Almost everyone uses the away goal rule. It’s silly Americans who can’t wrap their heads around the concept. Most commonly after being salty that their team lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_goals_rule

Again: no one is having trouble wrapping their heads around the concept. I understand the rule. I just don't think the rule is something that's a worthy carryover from the European leagues (including for many of the reasons described in this thread).

I just struggle to see the advantage conferred under the rule on the team that demonstrated, over the course of a very long regular season, that it was the better side. I don't know the perfect answer (besides going to best-of-[odd number] series), but I think there has to be a better path than, following a tie in the first leg, a tie in the second leg means the worse regular season team wins the series.

That is dumb.

You may be able to comprehend the language of the rule, but you clearly don't understand the concept and why it's being used all over the world. Soccer had tried a variety of other methods and have settled on this method (at least for now).

Best team over the course of the season. Unbalanced schedules makes that murky at best. And YOU know that.

An odd number series is never going to happen in Soccer or American Football. And YOU know that. And YOU know why that is.

You're just being salty.

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:21 am

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:16 am

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:57 am Right?
KC lost. At home. There's not a lot of excuses there.
I don't want to end a season without a playoff - the system is fine as it is.

The score was 2-2 when KC had everyone up and Portland scored an easy goal in final minutes. One that wouldn’t have happened if KC wasn’t going all out for a score.

You guys don’t get the point of my post. It doesn’t matter KC lost 3-2. The score is irrelevant. Portland wouldn’t have scored a last minute cheap goal if it went to extras on a 2-2 draw. KC had 10 guys up. Left Portland open for easy counter when they got the ball.

The score isn't irrelevant.
KC was winning 1-0. They hold that score and they advance.
Win and you're in. They were at home. They lost.

I'm only going to explain this once and then I'm done dealing with a bunch of clowns who want to Americanize everything.

The Away Goal Rule actually helps produce better soccer. It forces the higher seed team to actually try in the first leg of the series. Without the Away Goal Rule, the higher seed would just play for a 0-0 or 0-1 result knowing that they can most likely get a 1-0 or better result at home in the second leg.

There is also another issue at play here that most of you are skirting around. A draw is NOT a bad thing. It's about 'getting a result' in soccer, not always about getting a win. Again, this is an attempt to Americanize everything.

If you don't like it, stick with American Football, Basketball and Baseball. Except when the NFL ties, then you can still claim it's the best.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:38 am

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:21 am

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:16 am

The score was 2-2 when KC had everyone up and Portland scored an easy goal in final minutes. One that wouldn’t have happened if KC wasn’t going all out for a score.

You guys don’t get the point of my post. It doesn’t matter KC lost 3-2. The score is irrelevant. Portland wouldn’t have scored a last minute cheap goal if it went to extras on a 2-2 draw. KC had 10 guys up. Left Portland open for easy counter when they got the ball.

The score isn't irrelevant.
KC was winning 1-0. They hold that score and they advance.
Win and you're in. They were at home. They lost.

This is a gross oversimplification of things. Both teams would have played both games very differently if the rule was different. That's the point (and the actual outcome is irrelevant in a discussion of this point).

But it also shouldn’t be - Allow one goal after you go up 1-0 and you go home if result stays 1-1.

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:42 am I'm only going to explain this once and then I'm done dealing with a bunch of clowns who want to Americanize everything.

The Away Goal Rule actually helps produce better soccer. It forces the higher seed team to actually try in the first leg of the series. Without the Away Goal Rule, the higher seed would just play for a 0-0 or 0-1 result knowing that they can most likely get a 1-0 or better result at home in the second leg.

There is also another issue at play here that most of you are skirting around. A draw is NOT a bad thing. It's about getting 'getting a result' in soccer, not always about getting a win. Again, this is an attempt to Americanize everything.

If you don't like it, stick with American Football, Basketball and Baseball. Except when the NFL ties, then you can still claim it's the best.

First - why in the world should American soccer aspire to be exactly like European soccer? FIBA plays with the weird (to me) take-the-ball-off-the-rim thing. Does the game fall apart? It does not.

Second, and specifically in reference to the bolded language above - fine!, but it is still an absurd outcome where, in a series with one home game for each team, the worse team gets the benefit of the rule. All things being equal (literally: same number of home games, same number of goals), the worse team has the advantage.

I'll put this differently: if you gave the superior team the choice, wouldn't the superior team rather host the first leg, and have the benefit of the away goal rule in the second leg? I'd think they would!