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Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:51 am
by twocoach
TDub wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:54 am
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:58 am
DCHawk1 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:38 pm

Hey. If you wanna believe that nearly half the electorate is irredeemably racist, that's your business. It's also trite, lazy, self-serving, and thoroughly irrational, but you do you.

My favorites, though, are the people, towns, counties, states, that voted for the Kenyan Mooslim but then became racists afterward.
I don’t wanna believe that.

I DO believe that a critical portion of voters are either irredeemably racist, or irredeemably OK with racism, if that distinction can be made. I dunno which is scarier.

The Obama-Trump voters are quite a curiosity, especially when considering race and racism as a factor. I suppose those folks care more than anything about upending some status quo, but I’m not sure what to make of them otherwise. They don’t seem to be a particularly yuge portion of the electorate either way. If you have any further insight about this demographic, please share.

But Obama-Trump voters are a portion either way. And either way I’m not sure pointing to Obama-Trump voters can allow one to shrug off race and racism as some significant factor in the past 3 elections in particular.

I think a bigger portion of the Obama voters just decided that there was no one worth voting for so they voted 3rd party or didnt vote. A huge portion if the country voted for "nobody". This has a pretty decent chance of happening again in 2020 and is a big reason why Trump has a good chance again. The democrats need to put forth someone who people WANT to in office. "Yea, but the other option is Trump" isnt going to win elections.

http://philip-kearney.com/blog/wp-conte ... on-2-1.png
I dont believe this has "a pretty decent chance" of happening again. I personally had very little desire to vote for Hillary Clinton but ultimately did due to my opposition to the obvious fraud running on the GOP side. A lot of people sat out as a direct reflection of their opposition to Clinton specifically.

None of the Dem candidates have the kind of baggage that came with Clinton. Everyone has issues but nothing even remotely close to rivaling what came along with Clinton.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:54 am
by HouseDivided
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:19 am
HouseDivided wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:37 am
DCHawk1 wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:17 am

That's NOT what the majority of Trump voters think.

The majority of them think: The Dems are completely fucking insane. And they hate us. What choice do we have?
That’s a bingo!
Man, how did we, and perhaps in the majority of Trump voters in particular, become so divided?

“Who cares about our own best interests, or whether our candidate is a slime ball. Let’s just stick it to the other guys!”
For me, it started with Obama's "You didn't build that," as well as his habit of continually apologizing to other countries and cultures on my behalf without my permission. It finally dawned on me that "This guy and his party think I'm an inconsequential piece of filth and would prefer that I cease to exist." Changed my outlook forever.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:14 am
by TDub
twocoach wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:51 am
TDub wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:54 am
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:58 am

I don’t wanna believe that.

I DO believe that a critical portion of voters are either irredeemably racist, or irredeemably OK with racism, if that distinction can be made. I dunno which is scarier.

The Obama-Trump voters are quite a curiosity, especially when considering race and racism as a factor. I suppose those folks care more than anything about upending some status quo, but I’m not sure what to make of them otherwise. They don’t seem to be a particularly yuge portion of the electorate either way. If you have any further insight about this demographic, please share.

But Obama-Trump voters are a portion either way. And either way I’m not sure pointing to Obama-Trump voters can allow one to shrug off race and racism as some significant factor in the past 3 elections in particular.

I think a bigger portion of the Obama voters just decided that there was no one worth voting for so they voted 3rd party or didnt vote. A huge portion if the country voted for "nobody". This has a pretty decent chance of happening again in 2020 and is a big reason why Trump has a good chance again. The democrats need to put forth someone who people WANT to in office. "Yea, but the other option is Trump" isnt going to win elections.

http://philip-kearney.com/blog/wp-conte ... on-2-1.png
I dont believe this has "a pretty decent chance" of happening again. I personally had very little desire to vote for Hillary Clinton but ultimately did due to my opposition to the obvious fraud running on the GOP side. A lot of people sat out as a direct reflection of their opposition to Clinton specifically.

None of the Dem candidates have the kind of baggage that came with Clinton. Everyone has issues but nothing even remotely close to rivaling what came along with Clinton.
I dont believe this has "a pretty decent chance" of happening again

This is why it does have a decent chance. The democrats are so sure that they will win that they aren't addressing the issues that lost the last election. They aren't acknowledging the needs of the middle of the road voter. You arent a middle of the road voter, you lean fairly decently left like most here. I'm middle of the road in reality but get painted as far right conservative here. That's a statement on the make up of the people on this site, not representative of the make up of the voter pool.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:20 am
by seahawk
HouseDivided wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:54 am
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:19 am
HouseDivided wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:37 am

That’s a bingo!
Man, how did we, and perhaps in the majority of Trump voters in particular, become so divided?

“Who cares about our own best interests, or whether our candidate is a slime ball. Let’s just stick it to the other guys!”
For me, it started with Obama's "You didn't build that," as well as his habit of continually apologizing to other countries and cultures on my behalf without my permission. It finally dawned on me that "This guy and his party think I'm an inconsequential piece of filth and would prefer that I cease to exist." Changed my outlook forever.
Bless your heart.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:03 pm
by TDub
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/16/politics ... index.html

Another example of the democrats being so specifically focused on an agenda and needing to be extreme that they are limiting their voting pool. Pete is the type of candidate that could gain some of the moderate votes needed to win an election and he is being chastised for being too conservative. This is why Donald Trump has a chance to win again. General election is give and take with your ideals and the ideal candidate. The left has no flex and they will lose moderate voters because of it.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:12 pm
by seahawk
Young online folks don't like Pete--and when did that become the largest Democratic voting block? Or one that actually goes to the polls?

Seems like just looking for a rationale for bashing Democrats. Fact is, from what I've seen on the ground, most Dems haven't made up their minds at all. At least Dem women, who are the ones that usually spend their time on all that mundane GOTV stuff.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:18 pm
by ousdahl
Go figure!

And all this time I thought the online folks just didn’t like the guy cuz of the unsavory search results when they googled “Buttplug Pete.”

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:23 pm
by HouseDivided
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:18 pm Go figure!

And all this time I thought the online folks just didn’t like the guy cuz of the unsavory search results when they googled “Buttplug Pete.”
There are Presidential-sounding names and there are those that aren’t. Buttigieg falls into the latter category. Same reason I would never have voted for Mike Huckabee. Just doesn’t inspire respect.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:00 pm
by Geezer
Steven Miller.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:00 pm
by DCHawk1
seahawk wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:06 am Ousdahl, there are a slew of studies that indicate that racism was the factor in voting in 2016. Interesting that some, including our esteemed academic, are so willing and insistent on ignoring them. Wonder why?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qphz9lxy6pxni ... c.pdf?dl=0

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... 18-midterm

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/ ... iety-study

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 0216677304

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... c-anxiety/
As luck would have it, I just happen to working on a project dealing with this specific issue. So, this isn't just fun: I'm getting paid for it!

Let's break this down:

The first two links (Vox, lulz) are basically the same thing -- i.e. an article about a study and the study itself (the first link).

The fourth link is a different study, while the fifth link is to a WaPo op-ed summarizing a third study.

Study #1: Abstract, with emphasis added.

In the aftermath of Donald Trump’s 2016 electoral college victory, journalists focused heavily on the white working class (WWC) and the relationship between economic anxiety, racial attitudes, immigration attitudes, and support for Trump. One hypothesized but untested proposition for Donald Trump’s success is that his unorthodox candidacy, particularly his rhetoric surrounding economic marginalization and immigration, shifted WWC voters who did not vote Republican in 2012 into his coalition. Using a large national survey we examine 1) whether racial and immigration attitudes or economic dislocation and marginality were the main correlates of vote switching, and; 2) whether this phenomenon was isolated among the white working class. We find a non-trivial number of white voters switched their votes in the 2016 election to Trump or Clinton, that this vote switching was more associated with racial and immigration attitudes than economic factors, and that the phenomena occurred among both working class and non-working-class whites, though many more working-class whites switched than non-working class whites. Our findings suggest that racial and immigration attitudes may be continuing to sort white voters into new partisan camps and further polarize the parties.

In the study's introduction, we get this, emphasis added again:

According to instrumental views of partisan change, the increased political attention to racialized issues (policing, immigration) during Obama’s tenure and the increased reliance on non-white voters is shifting the Democratic Party’s median position on issues away from the median white citizen’s position, resulting in white shifts towards the Republican Party as white voters update their partisanship to match their policy positions. According to identity-based conceptions of partisan change, the increased perception of the Democratic Party as a coalition of non-white voters is changing perceptions of where many whites feel they belong. There is evidence that both processes are occurring.

Finally, in the conclusion, we get the "money" graph:

Throughout this paper we presented evidence that Trump and Clinton’s candidacies and
campaign messages did likely have an effect on voting trends. White voters with racially
conservative or anti-immigrant attitudes switched votes to Trump at a higher rate than
those with more liberal views on these issues.


In sum, then, what we have is the conclusion that some, "non-trivial" number of voters switched to Trump from Obama because of race AND immigration.

Since we know the number of switchers to Trump = ~8 million voters; since we know that the authors of this study are very careful to use words like "some" "non-trivial" and "likely,"; since we know that an overwhelming majority of Americans favor enforcing current immigration laws more firmly; and since we know that regression models, being what they are, are reasonably easy to manipulate, even unintentionally: the conclusion that can be draw from all of this is that some people, probably far less than 1 million voters (given the dominance of immigration attitudes and the authors' unwillingness to suggest a larger percentage), switched to Trump because of race. And of those (given the authors' specific notation of the shift of "the Democratic Party’s median position on issues away from the median white citizen’s position,") we can probably assume that less than 500,000 voters switched because of their own changing racial attitudes.

That's not nothing (i.e. non-trivial), but it's not enough to draw the conclusion that Trump voters are racists (unless, of course, you work for Vox).

------------------------

The other Vox link (Vox, lulz) is a case study in making claims generally not supported by the studies cited:

e.g.:

Cathy Cohen have published the results of a new survey on these questions, with a focus on the 41 percent of white millennials who voted for Trump and the sense of “white vulnerability” that motivated them. The conclusion is very clear....

Actually, the conclusion is:

White millennials who scored high on the white vulnerability scale were 74 percent more likely to vote for Trump than those at the bottom of the scale.

racial resentment is the biggest predictor of white vulnerability among white millennials.

What this means, then, is that IF you happen to be a millennial, and IF you happen to believe that white are in a tough position, demographically, then it is more likely that you will A. vote for Trump and B. be motivated by racial resentment.

This is NOT the same as saying that millennials who voted for Trump were motivated by racial resentment, contra Vox. That's a common deception, based on willful misrepresentation of data and conclusions.

Make your way further down the article and you see that this is a pattern:

One paper, published in January by political scientists Brian Schaffner, Matthew MacWilliams, and Tatishe Nteta, found that voters’ measures of sexism and racism correlated much more closely with support for Trump than economic dissatisfaction after controlling for factors like partisanship and political ideology.

What this means is that if you take out the largest drivers of vote determinants -- i.e. party and ideology -- then sexism or racism are likelier to determine vote choice than economic dissatisfaction. That's a vanishingly small population.


Another study, conducted by researchers Brenda Major, Alison Blodorn, and Gregory Major Blascovich shortly before the election, found that if people who strongly identified as white were told that nonwhite groups will outnumber white people in 2042, they became more likely to support Trump.

So, if you're willing to tell a pollster you "strongly identify" as white, you will vote for the guy who proposes to enforce existing immigration law.


And a study, published in November by researchers Matthew Luttig, Christopher Federico, and Howard Lavine, found that Trump supporters were much more likely to change their views on housing policy based on race. In this study, respondents were randomly assigned “a subtle image of either a black or a white man.” Then, they were asked about views on housing policy.

These image-related studies have always been controversial and are nearly universally considered garbage.

-----------------------

Moving on from Vox (lulz), the next study -- and the fourth link -- gives the game away in the abstract (emphasis added):

This experiment demonstrates that the changing racial demographics of America contribute to Trump’s success as a presidential candidate among White Americans whose race/ethnicity is central to their identity

Again, if your study looks only at white identitarians, then you're likely to find a group of people who are...well...white identitarians. Who knew?

-----------------------

The third "study" -- and the fifth link -- sounds interesting. But it isn't a study. It's an op-ed about a book based on a study, a study comparing racial attitudes relative to economic news between the Bush and the Obama presidencies. None of which has anything to do with Trump. More to the point, the author, an associate professor of political science at the University of California at Irvine, gives us the following in his conclusion:

this doesn’t mean that economic anxiety has no influence on support for Trump. John Sides and I presented some preliminary evidence that economic insecurity was a factor in Trump’s rise.

Nor does it mean that racial resentment is the prime determinant of economic anxiety. It isn’t.



All things considered -- and Vox's typical simplistic misinterpretation notwithstanding -- this isn't exactly proof that Trump was elected because of racism. If anything, it all suggests that he wasn't

What does seem to be a pattern, though, is that if you are a white identitarian or favor immigration restrictions, you would vote for Trump. That's not a good thing for Trump or the GOP, obviously, but it's a far cry from the consensus here.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:03 pm
by DCHawk1
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:19 am
HouseDivided wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:37 am
DCHawk1 wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:17 am

That's NOT what the majority of Trump voters think.

The majority of them think: The Dems are completely fucking insane. And they hate us. What choice do we have?
That’s a bingo!
Man, how did we, and perhaps in the majority of Trump voters in particular, become so divided?

“Who cares about our own best interests, or whether our candidate is a slime ball. Let’s just stick it to the other guys!”
lulz @ you presuming to know what everyone else's "best interests" are.

O'course, that seems to be a pattern among lefty Kansans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_ ... _Kansas%3F

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:04 pm
by HouseDivided
Excellent thoughts, DC. Thanks for sharing, and, more importantly, interjecting some intelligent ideas into the discussion.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:11 pm
by seahawk
This is NOT the same as saying that millennials who voted for Trump were motivated by racial resentment, contra Vox. That's a common deception, based on willful misrepresentation of data and conclusions.

Bless your heart, normalizing the Pussy Grabber's insidious racism has certainly taken you to some heights of deflection.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:13 pm
by DCHawk1
seahawk wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:11 pm This is NOT the same as saying that millennials who voted for Trump were motivated by racial resentment, contra Vox. That's a common deception, based on willful misrepresentation of data and conclusions.

Bless your heart, normalizing the Pussy Grabber's insidious racism has certainly taken you to some heights of deflection.
I'll reread the study, but to the best of my recollection, there's nothing in it about grabbing pussy.

I'll get back to you.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:32 pm
by TDub
seahawk wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:12 pm Young online folks don't like Pete--and when did that become the largest Democratic voting block? Or one that actually goes to the polls?

Seems like just looking for a rationale for bashing Democrats. Fact is, from what I've seen on the ground, most Dems haven't made up their minds at all. At least Dem women, who are the ones that usually spend their time on all that mundane GOTV stuff.
Again an example of me being labeled as a far right conservative. I'm not bashing anyone, simply pointing out democrats bashing each other. I like Pete, unfortunately I dont think he will win the nomination.

Also, young online democrats are basically solely responsible for Andrew Yangs continued position in the race, not sure they are a huge bloc but most likely large enough to warrant consideration.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:32 pm
by ousdahl
DCHawk1 wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:03 pm
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:19 am
HouseDivided wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:37 am

That’s a bingo!
Man, how did we, and perhaps in the majority of Trump voters in particular, become so divided?

“Who cares about our own best interests, or whether our candidate is a slime ball. Let’s just stick it to the other guys!”
lulz @ you presuming to know what everyone else's "best interests" are.

O'course, that seems to be a pattern among lefty Kansans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_ ... _Kansas%3F
I didn’t intend to presume I know what everyone else’s best interests are, nor am I quite sure how you took that away from my post.

I read that book way back when — isn’t the gist of it that conservatives often vote against their own economic interests cuz they’re so worked up about cultural interests instead? And it faults liberals for not emphasizing economic issues enough?

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:41 pm
by DCHawk1
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:32 pm I didn’t intend to presume I know what everyone else’s best interests are, nor am I quite sure how you took that away from my post.
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:19 am
“Who cares about our own best interests, or whether our candidate is a slime ball. Let’s just stick it to the other guys!”
How do you know that sticking it to the other guy isn't in their best interests (or eveyone's best interests, for that matter)?

If, for example, you plan to be a billionaire someday and don't want the government to tax your wealth (as opposed to your income), then having Trump "stick it" to EWarren seems to coincide with your interests.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:48 pm
by twocoach
TDub wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:14 am
twocoach wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:51 am
TDub wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:54 am


I think a bigger portion of the Obama voters just decided that there was no one worth voting for so they voted 3rd party or didnt vote. A huge portion if the country voted for "nobody". This has a pretty decent chance of happening again in 2020 and is a big reason why Trump has a good chance again. The democrats need to put forth someone who people WANT to in office. "Yea, but the other option is Trump" isnt going to win elections.

http://philip-kearney.com/blog/wp-conte ... on-2-1.png
I dont believe this has "a pretty decent chance" of happening again. I personally had very little desire to vote for Hillary Clinton but ultimately did due to my opposition to the obvious fraud running on the GOP side. A lot of people sat out as a direct reflection of their opposition to Clinton specifically.

None of the Dem candidates have the kind of baggage that came with Clinton. Everyone has issues but nothing even remotely close to rivaling what came along with Clinton.
I dont believe this has "a pretty decent chance" of happening again

This is why it does have a decent chance. The democrats are so sure that they will win that they aren't addressing the issues that lost the last election. They aren't acknowledging the needs of the middle of the road voter. You arent a middle of the road voter, you lean fairly decently left like most here. I'm middle of the road in reality but get painted as far right conservative here. That's a statement on the make up of the people on this site, not representative of the make up of the voter pool.
What would a middle of the road Dem candidate look like to you? Where would they stand on gun rights/abortion/immigration etc....?

What you describe sounds lovely but I have never heard an actual description of this mythical middle of the road Dem that would "meet your needs".

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:49 pm
by twocoach
DCHawk1 wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:41 pm
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:32 pm I didn’t intend to presume I know what everyone else’s best interests are, nor am I quite sure how you took that away from my post.
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:19 am
“Who cares about our own best interests, or whether our candidate is a slime ball. Let’s just stick it to the other guys!”
How do you know that sticking it to the other guy isn't in their best interests (or eveyone's best interests, for that matter)?

If, for example, you plan to be a billionaire someday and don't want the government to tax your wealth (as opposed to your income), then having Trump "stick it" to EWarren seems to coincide with your interests.
Nothing is in everyone's best interests. It doesn't work that way.

Re: SCOTUS

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:50 pm
by chiknbut
HouseDivided wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:54 am
ousdahl wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:19 am
HouseDivided wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:37 am

That’s a bingo!
Man, how did we, and perhaps in the majority of Trump voters in particular, become so divided?

“Who cares about our own best interests, or whether our candidate is a slime ball. Let’s just stick it to the other guys!”
For me, it started with Obama's "You didn't build that," as well as his habit of continually apologizing to other countries and cultures on my behalf without my permission. It finally dawned on me that "This guy and his party think I'm an inconsequential piece of filth and would prefer that I cease to exist." Changed my outlook forever.
Hilarious.