Kansas Crimson

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:35 pm Yeah, that’s a good detail to point out.

But I still think it’s rotten when a feature of becoming a billionaire - the Bezos/Walton model, for instance - is keeping wages for employees low.

Yes, but the immoral thing is keeping wages low, not the accumulation of wealth.

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:34 pm

TDub wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:21 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:45 pm Actually, I’ll argue that being a “billionaire” in itself is fundamentally immoral, and that that’s not even a radical stance, either.

My god

Do we need to define immoral?

I dont, maybe Ous does.

TDub wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:06 pm

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:34 pm

TDub wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:21 pm

My god

Do we need to define immoral?

I dont, maybe Ous does.

So we don't need to agree to a definition of what we're discussing?

TDub, since maybe I do, would you be kind enough to offer a definition?

Murder is immoral, cheating pn your spouse is immoral.

Maybe the acts it took to accumlate billions might be immoral.

The fact that a person has a billion is not immoral in and of itself. It is possible to have billions and be immoral or to have accumulated the stash in an immoral manner.....it is also possible to have billions and be a perfectly moral and balanced person. The simple act of having money does not immediately qualify someone as immoral....thats just silly.

There's a reason we did away with the 90% tax bracket

It is easier for you to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven. The wisdom of that analogy is that to be rich, one must ignore the cries of the hungry.

At the risk of sounding too pedantic, I acknowledge TDubs examples of what he feels are immoral acts, but we still don't have a definition of immoral that we all can embrace to be discussing this on a level playing field. Do we accept a dictionary's definition?

Take the money out of it.

If it was any other anything, and someone had a billion of it, wouldn’t it come across as as little peculiar?

Unless it was a billion fishing rods. I get that.

Mjl wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:47 pm There's a reason we did away with the 90% tax bracket

To kill the middle class?

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:17 pm At the risk of sounding too pedantic, I acknowledge TDubs examples of what he feels are immoral acts, but we still don't have a definition of immoral that we all can embrace to be discussing this on a level playing field. Do we accept a dictionary's definition?

I had a college professor tell us that the dictionary is a bad source of information because it's too PC. I got into an argument with her and may have called her a fascist. Ended up with a C.

Mjl is Antifa

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:22 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:47 pm There's a reason we did away with the 90% tax bracket

To kill the middle class?

Did it tho?

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=AKgW

Edit: how the hell do I embiid this thing

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:25 pm Mjl is Antifa

Just got my membership card!

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:21 pm Take the money out of it.

If it was any other anything, and someone had a billion of it, wouldn’t it come across as as little peculiar?

Unless it was a billion fishing rods. I get that.

If they have extra theyd sell it.....or barter it to improve their position/accumulate wealth in whatever was the measure of value in that society.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:21 pm Take the money out of it.

If it was any other anything, and someone had a billion of it, wouldn’t it come across as as little peculiar?

Unless it was a billion fishing rods. I get that.

Let's take a step back. Because you're getting caught up in wealth of others, which in and of itself doesn't affect you.

What is the minimum lifestyle that someone who gives no effort should have? Similar but not exactly the same - should effort be rewarded?

No, let’s keep that step going, cuz the only point to take away from that is one about greed.

I think the hoarding of wealth and avoiding of taxes affects us all.

Where you going with “no effort?” You mean like a freeloader? Or a vegetable? Or an inheritance? Orrr? I’m honestly not sure.

And hell fucking yes effort should be rewarded. That’s why I think anyone willing and able to put forth the effort full time should be rewarded with a decent standard of living. But Im not sure that’s where you were going with that one either.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:40 pm No, let’s keep that step going, cuz the only point to take away from that is one about greed.

I think the hoarding of wealth and avoiding of taxes affects us all.

Where you going with “no effort?” You mean like a freeloader? Or a vegetable? Or an inheritance? Orrr? I’m honestly not sure.

And hell fucking yes effort should be rewarded. That’s why I think anyone willing and able to put forth the effort full time should be rewarded with a decent standard of living. But Im not sure that’s where you were going with that one either.

Wealth is a motivator for creating stuff that people truly want, that's one reason capitalism works and communism does not. If you want to call that greed, fine, but it helps everyone.

I'm with you on the tax avoidance - I'm all for raising the rate on long term capital gains. Even though that money has already been taxed, I'm with you in that making money just by having money should be taxed at the same rate as making money by working for it.

I'm very, very much with you on the inheritance thing. The raising of the threshold for the estate tax in the Trump tax cuts was, to me, in the top three of the the worst things that administration did. Again, it's reducing taxes for people who didn't actually work for their money.

As for the minimum wage aspect, I will kick that back to you. Should we have a $100 per hour minimum wage? If not, why not?

In junior high in the 1970s, I worked busing tables at a local country club for$2.35 per hour. I worked with three Vietnamese
teens who were siblings. They lived two blocks from me with their other three siblings who worked fast food. Meanwhile, Marion Kaufman’s acolytes treated us like crap at Leawood CC, which has been long gone. A $15.00 minimum wage for the type of family I just described changes lives, not the pull yourself by your bootstraps bullshit that the minimum wage deniers embrace.

So, when someone tells me billionaires are immoral, with few exceptions, it is true.

One aspect not really being discussed about vast wealth is the amount of power it affords you in a capitalistic society. That, in turn, has lead to (almost without exception) abusing the system to gain even more wealth and power. Why do you think lobbyists and billionaires spend 100s of millions of dollars every election cycle? It isn't because they're trying to eliminate poverty or save homeless vets.