Israel/Palestine

[ousdahl]

Dang.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind.

[Deleted User 89]

eventually, one runs out of cheeks to turn

[zsn]

It’s so sad either way.

The who-started-it rhetoric doesn’t seem to do any good either.

Is there any path to a cease fire?

Not as long as Netanyahu is alive. It is in his best interest to keep the conflict active so that he can remain in power. Some on the Palestinian side are also similar but Netanyahu is a big part of the problem.

[Mjl]

Again, “One acknowledges the others right to existence, the other doesn't” sounds like something both sides can say. And neither side is wrong!

I hope I don’t come across as having a dog in the fight, tho. I think if either side wants to exist, they’re best off nixing the violence.

let’s avoid finger pointing the Palestinians to the point of condoning all the violence the Israelis have committed, and Vice versa.

To the Palestinians who just had their homes bombed and maybe even lost a child, you really think they’re shrugging it off like “it’s ok, we deserved this, we’re the terrorists, not them”. (And vice versa)

Heck, isn’t bombing civilian residential homes a war crime?

They voted for terrorists. Those terrorists are shooting rockets at civilians, sometimes falling on their own, from civilian locations. Israel alerts prior to the strikes.

[ousdahl]

soo they at least offer an alert before they blow up your kids...ohhh, that makes it ok!

[Mjl]

It’s so sad either way.

The who-started-it rhetoric doesn’t seem to do any good either.

Is there any path to a cease fire?

Not as long as Netanyahu is alive. It is in his best interest to keep the conflict active so that he can remain in power. Some on the Palestinian side are also similar but Netanyahu is a big part of the problem.

The conflict came long before Bibi, are you not familiar with the hijackings, the cafe bombings, the bus bombings? That conflict just sucks more for the Palestinians with him in power (unless they are able to use Bibi's aggression to get public opinion on their side, which is likely what they (Hamas) are going for).

[Mjl]

soo they at least offer an alert before they blow up your kids...ohhh, that makes it ok!

So you can get your kids out, yes.

Whereas when Hamas' rockets land on Palestinian children they don't get a warning.

[Deleted User 89]

unless i’m mistaken, there’s also only one side of this that resorts to suicide bombings

[ousdahl]

I just struggle to see how that’s really that much more humane.

Imagine sitting at home one night. You get a text that says “we’re about to blow your house up LOL so you better leave!” would that really strike you as anything less than terrorism?

If, the next day, you had to dig through the rubble that used to be your home, would you be cool with it cuz at least they alerted you first? I struggle to see that as some kinda courtesy.

Let’s not pick and choose, or rationalize for one side or the other. Let’s condemn all violence.

[zsn]

It’s so sad either way.

The who-started-it rhetoric doesn’t seem to do any good either.

Is there any path to a cease fire?

Not as long as Netanyahu is alive. It is in his best interest to keep the conflict active so that he can remain in power. Some on the Palestinian side are also similar but Netanyahu is a big part of the problem.

The conflict came long before Bibi, are you not familiar with the hijackings, the cafe bombings, the bus bombings? That conflict just sucks more for the Palestinians with him in power (unless they are able to use Bibi's aggression to get public opinion on their side, which is likely what they (Hamas) are going for).

The fact remains that Netanyahu is part of the problem not part of the solution. My answer was not meant to rehash history. It was meant to address ousie’s “is there any path to ceasefire?” question. It’s not exactly a secret that the PLO pioneered terrorizing civilians as a weapon but if we don’t acknowledge Netanyahu’s role in perpetuating the crisis we’re not being objective.

There have been a few Israeli statesmen who have made good-faith effort to reach a solution but Bibi is not one of them.

[ousdahl]

This is one of my fave follows on the gram right meow.

Super talented drummer.

Check out her story - one post has a map of where all the sirens are going off, and one is a vid she took of missiles flying over Tel Aviv the other night. It looks like fireworks or lightning bugs or something, but it’s missiles! Fucking scary.

[Deleted User 880]

Again, “One acknowledges the others right to existence, the other doesn't” sounds like something both sides can say. And neither side is wrong!

I hope I don’t come across as having a dog in the fight, tho. I think if either side wants to exist, they’re best off nixing the violence.

let’s avoid finger pointing the Palestinians to the point of condoning all the violence the Israelis have committed, and Vice versa.

To the Palestinians who just had their homes bombed and maybe even lost a child, you really think they’re shrugging it off like “it’s ok, we deserved this, we’re the terrorists, not them”. (And vice versa)

Heck, isn’t bombing civilian residential homes a war crime?

As someone who was raised Jewish and has Jewish friends and relatives in Israel, of course I have a bit of a bias but I can and do find fault in Israel for some things regarding the "conflict".

Here are some things that I have been told and read - if you (or anyone else) chooses to believe them - great. If not, great too.
I'm not 100% convinced it's ALL true but I do believe most of it is true.

Israel's goal in the current conflict is to take out Hamas "leaders".
Unfortunately there are civilian casualties when this happens. Sometimes Hamas purposely uses "civilian" buildings such as hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings, to launch rockets and they use civilians as "human shields".
Realize Hamas is a known "terrorist" organization. BAD guys (and girls) doing BAD things.
Now don't get me wrong, I realize many people in the world feel Israel is the bad guy and are "terrorists". Can't 100% disagree but of we are making comparisons, it's hard for me to not think Hamas and what they stand for is MUCH worse than what the Israeli military and government stand for.

I just now read that Israel is starting a "ground offensive" in Gaza.
Hamas normally doesn't fight "face to face" unless they are on the defensive.
Instead, when they are on the offensive, they simply launch "rockets" with the purpose of wanting more civilian casualties than structural damage. Hamas doesn't really go after the Israeli military or government leaders. It's more about civilian destruction and disruption. The Israeli military is more focused on going after Hamas "leaders" and it's more about wiping out the bad guys for them.

Many Palestinians are NOT supporters of Hamas. In fact, for many Palestinians Hamas is an "enemy".

Many people don't realize that many Israelis actually support the Palestinian economy and that Israel provides "aid" to Palestine.

In negotiating you usually need to give something to get something. Israel and Hamas don't trust each other and probably never will. Nor probably should they ever trust one another.
Right or wrong, I believe if Israel let the Palestinians live their lives and stopped with the "land grabs" and if Hamas would recognize and allow Israel to exist as a free "state", it would benefit BOTH countries. If only it were that simple.

[ousdahl]

I’m just glad no one accused me of being low key in love with roniponi



Cuz they’d be right!

[Deleted User 880]

I just struggle to see how that’s really that much more humane.

Imagine sitting at home one night. You get a text that says “we’re about to blow your house up LOL so you better leave!” would that really strike you as anything less than terrorism?

If, the next day, you had to dig through the rubble that used to be your home, would you be cool with it cuz at least they alerted you first? I struggle to see that as some kinda courtesy.

Let’s not pick and choose, or rationalize for one side or the other. Let’s condemn all violence.

I alluded to this in my past post....
There is a BIG difference between blowing up a civilian building (without warning) where nothing occurs other than civilians doing civilian things and blowing up a building (with warning) where numerous rockets are being launched and terrorists are hanging out.
Again, PLEASE don't get me wrong. I do feel and believe the Israeli's fuck up and kill way too many innocent people but when Hamas uses these civilian buildings to launch offensives and doesn't give a shit about using human shields - to me Hamas is just as responsible for the civilian deaths in Gaza/Palestine as the Israeli's who end up killing the Palestinian civilians.

[zsn]

Wow, Gutter, two very thoughtful and as-objective-as-possible posts on this topic. Just like the Hamas leaders are trying to keep the conflict alive so are the Israeli hardliners. This is why there’s no possibility of a solution any time soon.

[Deleted User 880]

Wow, Gutter, two very thoughtful and as-objective-as-possible posts on this topic. Just like the Hamas leaders are trying to keep the conflict alive so are the Israeli hardliners. This is why there’s no possibility of a solution any time soon.

Of course I could disagree - but I don't. How and why would I?
Takes two to tango but that's probably a bad saying being that these "sides" are fighting and not dancing.
I have friends who have been posting things such as "FREE PALESTINE" and "I SUPPORT ISRAEL".
While admirable that they care (I question how much some really care or if they just feel a need to conform), it's so freaking divisive.
I would much rather they be posting something such as - PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

In the photos I posted the other day you can see Arabs, Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc., etc., etc., all co-existing in the Old City and ZERO "conflict" what so ever.
Proof to me that there can be peace (at least INSIDE the "State" of Israel) despite people having different religious and political beliefs.
Meanwhile, because of the current "conflict", Jews and Arabs are beating the shit out of each other in the streets and committing other acts of "violence".
Enough so that Netanyahu felt the need to say this....

"What is happening in Israel's cities over the past few days is unacceptable. We have seen Arab rioters set fire to synagogues and vehicles and attack police officers. They are attacking peaceful and innocent citizens. This is something that we cannot accept; it is anarchy. Nothing justifies this and I will tell you that nothing justifies the lynching of Jews by Arabs and nothing justifies the lynching of Arabs by Jews".

"We will not tolerate this. This violence is not us. We will restore administration and governance in Israel's cities everywhere, in all cities, in the Jewish-Arab integrated cities, in Jewish cities, everywhere".

"To the citizens of Israel I say: I do not care if your blood is boiling. You cannot take the law into your own hands. You cannot grab an ordinary Arab citizen and try to lynch him – just as we cannot watch Arab citizens do this to Jewish citizens. This will not happen. This is something that I am certain is shared by most citizens of Israel".

"We are in a fight on two fronts, on one front against Hamas and we are all united and Hamas is firing missiles and rockets that hurt Jews and Arabs alike. Let us come together and do the task that is necessary for us as citizens of our state – to restore governance, eliminate this anarchy and maintain and restore the security and quiet that we all deserve".

[ousdahl]

Posting this cuz it’s funny when the band says something and certain fans are all like KEEP POLITICS OUTTA YALLS MUSIC and other fans chime in like, exactly what machine did you think they were raging against, the dishwasher?

[Deleted User 880]

Posting this cuz it’s funny when the band says something and certain fans are all like KEEP POLITICS OUTTA YALLS MUSIC and other fans chime in like, exactly what machine did you think they were raging against, the dishwasher?

I have always admired Tom Morello as a person and as a musician. Fortunate to see him perform many times and speak briefly with him once.
Very smart guy with strong opinions and views that I generally agree with.
All that being said, isn't it a bit hypocritical that he (and his band) have (and have had in the past) such rightful disdain for Israel and yet they have performed there and have happily taken Israeli's $?

[ousdahl]

The woke artist’s paradox

[zsn]

I don’t care who started the whole thing but bombing a building housing journalists and media outlets should be a war-crime. This whole “we are after Hamas leader hiding in the building” followed by “we warned the civilians in the building” is like Trumpalos coming up with excuses for Jan 6. So, you want us to buy it that the civilians are going to evacuate but the Hamas leader is going to remain in the building so that he can be taken out in the bombing? Any sympathy for Israel is evaporating rapidly.

The world has recognized that Hamas is a terrorist organization. The Israeli government is trying very hard to demonstrate that it is no different.