Kansas Crimson

You can't let Self off the hook for the bumbled roster and poor plan/strategy for the offense for this season, so I get it.

But, the whole "program shake up" is still too much when it takes 5 seconds to consider how different the feel is if the tourney was merely played last season.

We struck out on our blue chip PG prospects and had no other choice but to play Marcus there. Whether that was the NCAA investigation or the fact that OSU beat us to hire Cade's brother, who knows, but we are too quick to blow the program up after putting a together a 3-seed resume. I'd hate to see the comments if we pulled a UK, duke, Carolina.

It's not the program, it's the roster.

I love Braun, Agbaji, Garrett, Harris, and Bryce as individuals, but man they don't work together. Just too much redundancy and shared weaknesses. They don't complement each other.

I don't know what the answer is short term. Hopefully pdub is right and they all make big improvements, but I'm not sold on that.

CnB voice of reason.

MG has had a fantastic career. I think it is unfair to lump him in.

Thompson, and Harris are freshmen. So I can be patient.

CB, OA and TE are a different story for me.

Need some length.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:51 am You can't let Self off the hook for the bumbled roster and poor plan/strategy for the offense for this season, so I get it.

But, the whole "program shake up" is still too much when it takes 5 seconds to consider how different the feel is if the tourney was merely played last season.

We struck out on our blue chip PG prospects and had no other choice but to play Marcus there. Whether that was the NCAA investigation or the fact that OSU beat us to hire Cade's brother, who knows, but we are too quick to blow the program up after putting a together a 3-seed resume. I'd hate to see the comments if we pulled a UK, duke, Carolina.

2020 will be the greatest 'what if' in KU sports history but are we going to hang on to that like we do the 2008 Natty and excuse just how bad Self has been in the tourney since? Is there any guarantee they would have won last year? How do we know they wouldn't have got to the F4 and then got steam rolled by a team like Nova. Yeah, this year we got a three seed but in the end what did that get us? A 30+ pt beat down by SC. At some point, we as a fan base are going to have to decide if we value regular season consistency over tournament success in March and April.

I'm not saying its panic time but it also might not be a bad time to start to re-evaluate your staff and what they are bringing to the table because like you said, CnB clearly this roster isn't it.

Time to bring back Danny.

Nice wake up call for the blue bloods this season.
Having the best players doesn't equate to having the best team.
Sure it's always going to be the right logic to try and go out and get the best players you can but if this season has proven anything, it's that you sure better take in to account that if those players aren't coachable, aren't willing and able to play together, and aren't willing to stick around to better themselves, their team, and the program - you're fucked.

holidaysmore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:13 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:51 am You can't let Self off the hook for the bumbled roster and poor plan/strategy for the offense for this season, so I get it.

But, the whole "program shake up" is still too much when it takes 5 seconds to consider how different the feel is if the tourney was merely played last season.

We struck out on our blue chip PG prospects and had no other choice but to play Marcus there. Whether that was the NCAA investigation or the fact that OSU beat us to hire Cade's brother, who knows, but we are too quick to blow the program up after putting a together a 3-seed resume. I'd hate to see the comments if we pulled a UK, duke, Carolina.

2020 will be the greatest 'what if' in KU sports history but are we going to hang on to that like we do the 2008 Natty and excuse just how bad Self has been in the tourney since? Is there any guarantee they would have won last year? How do we know they wouldn't have got to the F4 and then got steam rolled by a team like Nova. Yeah, this year we got a three seed but in the end what did that get us? A 30+ pt beat down by SC. At some point, we as a fan base are going to have to decide if we value regular season consistency over tournament success in March and April.

I'm not saying its panic time but it also might not be a bad time to start to re-evaluate your staff and what they are bringing to the table because like you said, CnB clearly this roster isn't it.

Good point/s.
My worthless 2 cents.
We have had incredible success with the current staff BUT..... To me, they are stale.
Maybe they have reached the expiration date?
I would have no problem if Self stays (which I assume he will) if he brought in new blood to assist him.

Grandma wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:27 am Nice wake up call for the blue bloods this season.
Having the best players doesn't equate to having the best team.
Sure it's always going to be the right logic to try and go out and get the best players you can but if this season has proven anything, it's that you sure better take in to account that if those players aren't coachable, aren't willing and able to play together, and aren't willing to stick around to better themselves, their team, and the program - you're fucked.

This is off if you're talking about KU.

We had a good group of guys, it's just that not one of them is a top flight guard nor a first round draft pick.

The "best players" is the team's need.

Grandma wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:30 am

holidaysmore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:13 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:51 am You can't let Self off the hook for the bumbled roster and poor plan/strategy for the offense for this season, so I get it.

But, the whole "program shake up" is still too much when it takes 5 seconds to consider how different the feel is if the tourney was merely played last season.

We struck out on our blue chip PG prospects and had no other choice but to play Marcus there. Whether that was the NCAA investigation or the fact that OSU beat us to hire Cade's brother, who knows, but we are too quick to blow the program up after putting a together a 3-seed resume. I'd hate to see the comments if we pulled a UK, duke, Carolina.

2020 will be the greatest 'what if' in KU sports history but are we going to hang on to that like we do the 2008 Natty and excuse just how bad Self has been in the tourney since? Is there any guarantee they would have won last year? How do we know they wouldn't have got to the F4 and then got steam rolled by a team like Nova. Yeah, this year we got a three seed but in the end what did that get us? A 30+ pt beat down by SC. At some point, we as a fan base are going to have to decide if we value regular season consistency over tournament success in March and April.

I'm not saying its panic time but it also might not be a bad time to start to re-evaluate your staff and what they are bringing to the table because like you said, CnB clearly this roster isn't it.

Good point/s.
My worthless 2 cents.
We have had incredible success with the current staff BUT..... To me, they are stale.
Maybe they have reached the expiration date?
I would have no problem if Self stays (which I assume he will) if he brought in new blood to assist him.

So, unless Self brings in a new staff, you want him gone?

Good stuff. How stale did the staff feel a year ago?

sdoyel wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:17 am Time to bring back Danny.

Eh. McCormack's development was one of the bright spots.

There is obviously a personnel problem. Every single guy on the roster was playing one or two roles too high.

There's a development issue, too. You'd expect with his ability and attitude, Och would have improved much more than incrementally. Weird-ass year, though.

If I had to rank biggest big development under Self, Udoka, Withey and David would all be in the top 5. All made significant gains without Danny.

I think we need to replace a recruiter or Norm with someone that can figure out pace and points per possession like Nate Oats's staff has done. Or someone who can figure out how to guard the perimeter like Chris Beard's staff has done.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:31 am

Grandma wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:27 am Nice wake up call for the blue bloods this season.
Having the best players doesn't equate to having the best team.
Sure it's always going to be the right logic to try and go out and get the best players you can but if this season has proven anything, it's that you sure better take in to account that if those players aren't coachable, aren't willing and able to play together, and aren't willing to stick around to better themselves, their team, and the program - you're fucked.

This is off if you're talking about KU.

We had a good group of guys, it's just that not one of them is a top flight guard nor a first round draft pick.

The "best players" is the team's need.

"Blue bloods". If that includes or doesn't include this year's KU team, I'll leave that up to you to decide.
Of course I agree this wasn't a typical Bill Self KU team in terms of talent but there sure was enough talent to be more successful than we were. As others alluded to, too many nice pieces that just didn't fit that well together. This season was an enigma. I don't think we were as good as we may have thought we were winning the 8 in a row after the Gonzaga loss and then when we had the stretch when we went 8-1 nor do I think we were as bad as we may have thought we were when we lost what, 5 out of 7?
As far as needing best players, again I'll say I feel it's the way you need to think - to get the best players you can but forgetting KU this season, it didn't work out too well for Duke, UNC, Kentucky, etc.

to me, Och was the biggest let down player-wise

team-wise, it was the absolute inability to get buckets. and it isn’t like we were going against world-beater defenses 24-7...the guys, for whatever reason, just failed to make many shots that they should/could have

missed open jumpers, missed layups

more than anything else, our guys need to be putting up 1,000 shots/day from now till november

I do think that the staff needs a shakeup.

Not much is going to change until that frickin investigation is settled. One way or the other.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:32 am

Grandma wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:30 am

holidaysmore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:13 am

2020 will be the greatest 'what if' in KU sports history but are we going to hang on to that like we do the 2008 Natty and excuse just how bad Self has been in the tourney since? Is there any guarantee they would have won last year? How do we know they wouldn't have got to the F4 and then got steam rolled by a team like Nova. Yeah, this year we got a three seed but in the end what did that get us? A 30+ pt beat down by SC. At some point, we as a fan base are going to have to decide if we value regular season consistency over tournament success in March and April.

I'm not saying its panic time but it also might not be a bad time to start to re-evaluate your staff and what they are bringing to the table because like you said, CnB clearly this roster isn't it.

Good point/s.
My worthless 2 cents.
We have had incredible success with the current staff BUT..... To me, they are stale.
Maybe they have reached the expiration date?
I would have no problem if Self stays (which I assume he will) if he brought in new blood to assist him.

So, unless Self brings in a new staff, you want him gone?

Good stuff. How stale did the staff feel a year ago?

Unless Jay Wright or Brad Stevens is waiting in the wings, no but I also don't believe that Self isn't above being criticized either. Since Self is bullet proof the next logical place would be the staff. Like you mentioned some innovative ways to look at fixing some glaring issues.

2020 felt like lighting in a bottle. Healthy Doke, a more polished Dot and then role players who played their roles. Was that the staff or did Self finally get everything he needed for a team to win all lined up. As good as that team looked in 2020 I still had questions about whether they could win it all in a 'one and down' format. It wasn't like a 2020 National Championship was a foregone conclusion.

Self deserves criticism, sure, but I also recall a lot of our cold starts were often getting open looks from the Xs and Os but still laying bricks.

holidaysmore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:55 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:32 am

Grandma wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:30 am

Good point/s.
My worthless 2 cents.
We have had incredible success with the current staff BUT..... To me, they are stale.
Maybe they have reached the expiration date?
I would have no problem if Self stays (which I assume he will) if he brought in new blood to assist him.

So, unless Self brings in a new staff, you want him gone?

Good stuff. How stale did the staff feel a year ago?

Unless Jay Wright or Brad Stevens is waiting in the wings, no but I also don't believe that Self isn't above being criticized either. Since Self is bullet proof the next logical place would be the staff. Like you mentioned some innovative ways to look at fixing some glaring issues.

2020 felt like lighting in a bottle. Healthy Doke, a more polished Dot and then role players who played their roles. Was that the staff or did Self finally get everything he needed for a team to win all lined up. As good as that team looked in 2020 I still had questions about whether they could win it all in a 'one and down' format. It wasn't like a 2020 National Championship was a foregone conclusion.

Foregone conclusion, no. But even odds to get to the Final Four. Do that - and possibly more! - and this year is a relatively carefree, soft-landing type of result.

Instead, 2020 gets memory-holed, and the taste in our mouths is back-to-back second round woodshed losses to football schools, with absolutely joyless and misshapen KU rosters.