Kansas Crimson

Much like the American public in general, I don't think everyone posting here appreciates the distinction that needs to be made between the Palestinian refugees in Gaza, and Hamas.

Hamas has essentially become ISIS.

Like Gutter pointed out, Hamas knew while they were spending weeks and months planing the attack that Israel would have no choice but to respond, and hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians in Gaza were going to die as a result. Hamas knew that, but obviously Hamas didn't give a fuck. And they didn't give a fuck, because they're terrorists.

Sobering.

https://twitter.com/Phillip_Blond/statu ... 4132773920

Israel can win a one front war against Hamas. It can contain a two front war against Hezbollah. It might just endure a three front war in the West Bank. It may not survive a four front war with its domestic Arab population. Everything I fear is designed to bring about the latter

This is why I come back to the word fraught. This is not a make-bad-guys-go-splat situation. It might well be a the-only-way-to-win-is-to-not-play situation.

Shirley wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:40 am Much like the American public in general, I don't think everyone posting here appreciates the distinction that needs to be made between the Palestinian refugees in Gaza, and Hamas.

i was thinking about this distinction this morning while listening to accounts of all the protests across the US

i’m tempted to think that the conflation is at least in part derived from hamas being “elected”, but i admit to needing to look into that 2006 election more and what has transpired in Gaza since then (including the lack of elections)

i do think it’s true that one can be pro Palestinian (generally, in favor of some sort of Palestinian state) and vehemently anti-hamas

it's being reported that 40 Israeli babies were removed from cribs at the hospital, shot and beheaded. fuck. makes my stomach turn.

I can only hope that is a false report.

jfc

TDub wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:56 am it's being reported that 40 Israeli babies were removed from cribs at the hospital, shot and beheaded. fuck. makes my stomach turn.

I can only hope that is a false report.

https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1 ... 5025821976

Q's comrades doin' work again

https://twitter.com/GLNoronha/status/17 ... 9766106267

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:45 am This is why I come back to the word fraught. This is not a make-bad-guys-go-splat situation. It might well be a the-only-way-to-win-is-to-not-play situation.

I had anticipated a much different response from the one we're seeing -- and the one that is expected.

Despite, apparently, having missed this attack, Shin Bet, Aman, and Mossad together constitute what is historically the most effective intelligence apparatus in modern history. I would hope that they have spent years gaming for this specific scenario.

Time will tell, I suppose.

the “missing” of details about this particular attack is one thing

i’m struggling to understand how the volume of rockets getting into Gaza seemingly went unnoticed in the face of the blockade and intelligence apparatus

An email to our employees from my cousin who is the CEO of the company I work for.....

Subject: Saturdays Attack in Israel

I know that you, like me, were horrified by the barbaric acts we all witnessed terrorists affiliated with the terrorist organization Hamas perpetrate on Saturday in Israel. The intentional indiscriminate rape, murder, torture and kidnapping of civilian men and women, of children and the elderly, was obscene and appalling.

There most certainly is a time, place, and acute need to discuss the very nuanced issue set that is the tragic status of Gaza and the West Bank. However, I personally cannot understand any equivocation regarding the mowing down of 260 people at a music festival or the other heinous barbaric crimes we witnessed. When we are silent we abdicate our values. To take joy from or celebrate Saturdays acts of terror is simply shameful.

I know that the vast overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas in any way. I also know that the vast overwhelming majority of all people, regardless or race or religion, find Saturdays acts of terror abhorrent, painful, contrary to their values and counterproductive to progress.

As a Jew who stands with Israel, one who sees a great wave of hate and anti semitism forming, the knowledge that people stand with Israel and stand with the Jewish people is affirming. Your support is affirming. It is meaningful when we hear from each other and I thank you for that.

**** XXXXX (I deleted our company's name)
will always work to be a safe, caring, tolerant and understanding place for all employees. It is important that in the worst of times we are there to support and comfort each other and help everyone to feel safe.

While we can all hope for a miracle related to the return of hostages, I believe the coming days will get worse. Please take care of yourself, your families and your colleagues during this stressful time. Please reach out to HR if you need any support or assistance.


Best, Michael

"I know that the vast overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas in any way"

What makes him say that? They elected Hamas, which already was a known terrorist organization at the time.

i have no idea as to the reliability of this source, but it’s the most recent i found

https://pcpsr.org/en/node/938

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:43 am "I know that the vast overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas in any way"

What makes him say that? They elected Hamas, which already was a known terrorist organization at the time.

I'm sure it's nuanced, but I've always understood it to be not so much that Palestinians specifically wanted Hamas in 2006, as much as Hamas was an alternative to feckless, corrupt Fatah, which had dominated Palestinian politics for decades.

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:43 am "I know that the vast overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas in any way"

What makes him say that? They elected Hamas, which already was a known terrorist organization at the time.

I would have to ask him why he said/says it.
You know much more about Palestinian elections than I do.
When you say "they" elected Hamas, who exactly is "they" that voted and did Hamas legitimately get more than 50% of the vote?

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:20 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:45 am This is why I come back to the word fraught. This is not a make-bad-guys-go-splat situation. It might well be a the-only-way-to-win-is-to-not-play situation.

I had anticipated a much different response from the one we're seeing -- and the one that is expected.

Despite, apparently, having missed this attack, Shin Bet, Aman, and Mossad together constitute what is historically the most effective intelligence apparatus in modern history. I would hope that they have spent years gaming for this specific scenario.

Time will tell, I suppose.

I got the sense last summer that Israelis don't have the same sense of existential vulnerability that they did even 20 years ago. That's a very broad generality. But it seems the super talented have been more interested in making money in business than defending the country. I think this is why I wasn't as optimistic as you a few pages ago.

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:29 am

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:43 am "I know that the vast overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas in any way"

What makes him say that? They elected Hamas, which already was a known terrorist organization at the time.

I would have to ask him why he said/says it.
You know much more about Palestinian elections than I do.
When you say "they" elected Hamas, who exactly is "they" that voted and did Hamas legitimately get more than 50% of the vote?

They, as in Arab residents of the "West Bank" and Gaza.

Hamas didn't get a majority, but they did get a plurality. As for legitimacy - if anything, Hamas would have received more votes if not for some Israeli actions.

An under reported element in this is a calculated risk by Netanyahu in 2019 allowing/encouraging Hamas to be armed to set up a rift between Palestinian factions. He seems to have badly miscalculated.

Sparko wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:53 pm An under reported element in this is a calculated risk by Netanyahu in 2019 allowing/encouraging Hamas to be armed to set up a rift between Palestinian factions. He seems to have badly miscalculated.

Beyond a single comment, what did he actually do?

He left outposts undefended and seems to affected a Machiavellian strategy

https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu- ... ar-history

Mid-crisis is not a great time to hold him accountable, but there is a lot there that surprises me.