Kansas Crimson

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:07 pm The difference is my arguments have a point/intention - we are on the Vick thread after all.
You just argue to argue.
You are the LeBron, Gutter the MJ.

What is twocoach?

LOL

I can't put twocoach in their category on the normal boards.
I enjoy him.
But I don't read the poli-bord except to be sure no one is getting out of control.

So I suppose in that sense twocoach is like Diani Taurasi.

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:29 pm "glass-half full statistical summaries"

PPG. FG%. 3FG%.
Glass-half full.
I'll be sure to remember that whenever JFish or CnB uses any of those metrics as an argument, that they are simply using glass-half full statistical summaries.

I honestly can't tell if you're just being obstinate, or whether you really believe some of what you're saying.

I have never said those three statistics are irrelevant. What I have said is that they are cherry-picked; that is, they were selected (by you) (a) because they cast Vick in a good light, and (b) because they do not (and cannot) capture the parts of Vick's game that are being criticized.

NO ONE IS SAYING VICK'S PPG, FG% OR 3FG% ARE BAD, OR IRRELEVANT.

What people are saying is that those statistics, by themselves, do not represent Vick's play, in the aggregate, over the last month or so.

It's like using batting average, home runs and steals to say a baseball player is good. You will not find anyone who says that a .300/30/30 season in those areas is bad.

What you will find is someone who says, of a shitty fielder with those stats, and also a .310 OBP and 30 caught-stealings, that the player is not as good as the stats you cherry-picked seem to suggest.

What box score stat shows if a player executes plays correctly? Or runs a play full speed when they know the shot isn't going to be for them?

Because I've seen Vick half ass running around screens more times than I can count when the play is going to someone else or the other side of the court. When he's not involved he just goes thru the motions at about 50% speed. That's a problem that is never going to show up in a box score.

For Vick to get his 12pts per game or whatever that means he could have played hard on maybe 8 offensive possessions but hit 4 of his 8 3pt attempts....that doesn't mean he's had a good game just because he scored 12pts.

Then bring metrics that are valuable to show that he is an average, below average or bad player.
Or even more to the point, show metrics that are valuable to show that he is a detriment to our team.

Plus and minus is not one of them.
Nor are things like win share. Or usage rates.
PER is closer - and that's why I responded to CnB - but again, the reason stats like PPG and FG% and 3FG% are commonly listed under a players performance ( they're usually in the top 10 stats defining a player and 2 of them are usually in the top 4 ) isn't random.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:27 pm Because I've seen Vick half ass running around screens more times than I can count when the play is going to someone else or the other side of the court. When he's not involved he just goes thru the motions at about 50% speed. That's a problem that is never going to show up in a box score.

viewtopic.php?p=35302#p35302

Some things aren't showable in stats. It's not a math formula. It's a sport. Eye test matters. Effort is only able to be identified by the eye test.

You want to know what evidence we have that he's a detriment to the team.....how about that he wasn't welcomed back orginally after last year. There are 2 other players I can think of that fit that bill...Greene and Tharpe. Both detriments to their teams, especially Greene.

Your eye test vs my eye test.
We go nowhere.
Which is typically how you like to operate.

Your eye test says he plays hard all the time?

Executes plays full speed when they're not for him?

And all the other players play hard all the time?
And execute full speed when they aren't for them?
Are you watching them every play with as scrutinizing an eye as you are Vick?

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:32 pm
We go nowhere.
Which is typically how you like to operate.

That's literally you for 4+ days on Vick. No self awareness.

It's so funny you'd rather attack me than just admit there are more to sports than box scores and crimscores.

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:37 pm And all the other players play hard all the time?
And execute full speed when they aren't for them?
Are you watching them every play with as scrutinizing an eye as you are Vick?

And we go nowhere. How you like to operate.

I'll let the others entertain this silly stuff.

Precisely my point.
And we go nowhere.
And yes, please, I'd prefer it if the others would entertain this silly stuff.

I like debating with JFish and the like.

You could always do the Vega method and ban the people you don't like.

Ain't about that.

And to be honest, I'll admit i'm frustrated with the season, and that includes what's happened with Vick.
It is just of my opinion people are looking for a scapegoat and Vick is the best target.
Why else are posters ( not including illy bc duh ) continuing to come back on this thread about Vick and argue?

"He's bad for us, why won't you admit it? I don't have concrete reasons why he's bad for us but you should admit it."

I'm not gonna because I don't agree.
I like the kid.
I like most of the kids who make it to be seniors - I'm cheering for them far more than I am some dude who plays 30 games for us.
It is a big reason why I follow college basketball.

You like kids who get accused of kicking girls in the face?

Not me.

Does him getting accused mean he did it? No of course not....but just because he's a basketball player doesn't mean he is innocent either.

High character guys don't find themselves in those situations very often. The Vicks, Giles, etc. are the guys it seems to happen to. So it's enough to make me wonder.

Remember when you lost your shit when Bragg was accused of pushing a girl down the stairs and wanted him off the team immediately because of it?

Yup. I do.

And look where Bragg ended up. Getting kicked off the team.