Kansas Crimson

Japan certainly misled with testing and reporting and didn't declare an emergency until essentially the morning after the Olympics were postponed. As DC says, though, that's still not enough to make up for what appears to be a discrepancy. I absolutely tend to believe Japan's numbers are too low and I wonder what the hospitals actually looked like.

What helps, as mentioned, is a wildly different view and experience with contagion than many western cultures. Japan probably has the most prevalent mask-wearing culture anywhere in the world. Japan gained experience with SARS and MERS. Neither Japan nor Korea went on country-wide lockdown but companies were mandating working from home early on. In fact, the restrictions are tighter now after the curves were flattened--especially on foreigners.

Something not mentioned, first world Asian countries, especially like Japan and Korea, just generally have more of a trust of science based findings, solutions, spending, and programs. And are very trusting and proud of their healthcare systems. So, you're going to see things like medical staff better prepared to handle the infection, military nurses being moved to civilian, nursing and medical students being rushed to the frontlines. No, this is not a call for nationalized healthcare--it's just to illustrate when you have the people and the government aligned on defeating an issue, it's easier to implement because it is the people that are uniformly demanding the action. Homogeneity also helps A LOT.

Should the US have learned something from the rest of the world: Absolutely. Could it have been replicated here? Not to that success. Trump did not help. At all. And his opponents will suggest that reminding everyone of that every single day is the best strategy. It probably is, but like most political attack, you're going to find a lot of ridiculously loose logic being utilized.

what's the political climate like in those places, too?

are other countries so divided?

You can't really apply the two party system and especially can't really apply the liberal vs. conservative dynamic of the US in those places. So, there may be less division in that way, but there are certainly differing views on nearly every topic.

in my experience, it seems like the is a greater sense of responsibility to community, family, and society in Japan

as was alluded to by another poster, the Japanese didn’t wait until the government shut things down. they saw the writing in the wall, and based on 1) their previous experiences with other outbreaks, and 2) their sense of responsibility to entities greater than self, made behavioral changes voluntarily

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 12:49 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 12:10 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 10:18 pm

Likewise, I understand why you'd wish to conflate a society with a radically different conception of civil liberties and personal responsibility, plus the experience of MERS, with tRUmP

These factors absolutely played a role in the Korean government's ability to implement a response plan, especially the SARS experience and MERS response debacle. But make no mistake, their government response was much better than the US's. (Which, is something you've acknowledged many times.)

But, something that hasn't gotten a lot of run is that the rest of the world, the US included, had blueprints for success that places like Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc. help create that had nothing to do with the rest of the world's belief that East Asian cultures are all just a bunch of herd following authority-bowing sheep. The US had that blueprint and was too slow to implement, which to me is probably the most frustrating part of it.

edit: But, agree the Rhodes tweet is just obnoxious political baiting.

Yes.

Our government has been exceptionally and inexcusably bad during (and before) the pandemic. And even if you acknowledge the failures of the American bureaucracy -- which have largely been repeated throughout most of Europe, suggesting a systemic cultural issue -- Trump has been at his Trumpiest, meaning that he has been petty, childish, self-absorbed, and woefully and willfully ignorant. Moreover, I think the smartest and most effective thing he has done, allowing an incredibly diverse nation of more than 330 million people to handle many aspects of the crisis at the state and local levels, is a plan he stumbled bassakwards into while trying to dodge responsibility.

That said, the reason the Rhodes stuff chaps my ass is that it's part and parcel of the same gaslighting bullshit that has accompanied every aspect of the Trump presidency, i.e. "it's him! It's all him! Anyone else would have done it better! And oh yeah, we love George W. Bush now!" This practically guarantees that the fixable aspects of this clusterfuck will go unfixed, because fixing them could compromise the "Yay Team!" narrative.

As for the Asian countries' response to the pandemic, I'm most curious about Japan. I know the official numbers are undercounts -- due to lack of testing and intentional misreporting of cause of death. But even if you assume the worst, that ALL the excess deaths since mid-February were COVID deaths, that's still fewer than 2000 dead, in a country that didn't lock down, that didn't aggressively track and trace, and that didn't test.

Trump has done nothing smart or effective--zip, zero, 0 in this pandemic. Asian countries may have had some things going for them that the U.S. lacks, but they also lacked Donald Trump's idiocy and incompetence and unwillingness to hire decent staff or to keep them on.

We still don’t have a coherent national strategy. We have no idea where PPE was diverted to. We have essentially a rudderless government with a rage tweeter. It is nihilism not partisan rancor at this point.

seahawk wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 10:43 am DC's usual attempt to defend Trump

Trump has been at his Trumpiest, meaning that he has been petty, childish, self-absorbed, and woefully and willfully ignorant. Moreover, I think the smartest and most effective thing he has done, allowing an incredibly diverse nation of more than 330 million people to handle many aspects of the crisis at the state and local levels, is a plan he stumbled bassakwards into while trying to dodge responsibility.


Got me.

Pretty simple kids. I think we are all in agreement that our government sucks and many of our citizens suck. We bitch and we bitch towards one another on here and in the "real world".
So what's going to make it change? Nothing. We live in the self proclaimed greatest country in the world and let's be honest - much of this country sucks.

In another example of......GBA!
I'm so fucking tired of this. I assume the guy did do something worthy of being apprehended but whatever it was, there wasn't a need to kill him. As the video and all the witnesses attest to.
Spare me saying it's worse in other countries - I know it is. Doesn't excuse it for being bad in this country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... 9_Qu-xuTYA

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:16 am

seahawk wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 10:43 am DC's usual attempt to defend Trump

Trump has been at his Trumpiest, meaning that he has been petty, childish, self-absorbed, and woefully and willfully ignorant. Moreover, I think the smartest and most effective thing he has done, allowing an incredibly diverse nation of more than 330 million people to handle many aspects of the crisis at the state and local levels, is a plan he stumbled bassakwards into while trying to dodge responsibility.


Got me.

I honestly think your approach here is incredibly transparent. And, the fact that so many don't realize that can be pretty entertaining.

Grandma wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:21 amIn another example of......GBA!
I'm so fucking tired of this. I assume the guy did do something worthy of being apprehended but whatever it was, there wasn't a need to kill him. As the video and all the witnesses attest to.
Spare me saying it's worse in other countries - I know it is. Doesn't excuse it for being bad in this country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... 9_Qu-xuTYA

How do you balance the real danger police face in this country with the fact that an arrest should not, in the vast majority of cases, be a death sentence?

I'm glad I'm not the one that has to figure that out, but it has to be something better than the way those two officers were trained.

Grandma wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:21 am Pretty simple kids. I think we are all in agreement that our government sucks and many of our citizens suck. We bitch and we bitch towards one another on here and in the "real world".
So what's going to make it change? Nothing. We live in the self proclaimed greatest country in the world and let's be honest - much of this country sucks.

In another example of......GBA!
I'm so fucking tired of this. I assume the guy did do something worthy of being apprehended but whatever it was, there wasn't a need to kill him. As the video and all the witnesses attest to.
Spare me saying it's worse in other countries - I know it is. Doesn't excuse it for being bad in this country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... 9_Qu-xuTYA

Officer should be off the force for good and tried for something....murder even?
Fuck that guy.

On the one hand, I sympathize with LEOs trying to subdue someone who resists. They don't get enough training in self-defense/h-to-h techniques to subdue someone who fights back without hurting him/her.

On the other hand, that knee shoulda been on the head, not the neck. Like I said, not enough training.

In the absence of more clarifying information/video, this is on the department, not the individual cop.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:32 am

Grandma wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:21 am Pretty simple kids. I think we are all in agreement that our government sucks and many of our citizens suck. We bitch and we bitch towards one another on here and in the "real world".
So what's going to make it change? Nothing. We live in the self proclaimed greatest country in the world and let's be honest - much of this country sucks.

In another example of......GBA!
I'm so fucking tired of this. I assume the guy did do something worthy of being apprehended but whatever it was, there wasn't a need to kill him. As the video and all the witnesses attest to.
Spare me saying it's worse in other countries - I know it is. Doesn't excuse it for being bad in this country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... 9_Qu-xuTYA

Officer should be off the force for good and tried for something....murder even?
Fuck that guy.

Wrong.

Seriously?
The guy was handcuffed.
The officer was pressing his knee into his neck for minutes despite him screaming that he couldn't breathe.

The police officer killed that man.
They need to be held responsible for mistakes like this.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 amIn the absence of more clarifying information/video, this is on the department, not the individual cop.

They'll pay handsomely.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:16 am

seahawk wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 10:43 am DC's usual attempt to defend Trump

Trump has been at his Trumpiest, meaning that he has been petty, childish, self-absorbed, and woefully and willfully ignorant. Moreover, I think the smartest and most effective thing he has done, allowing an incredibly diverse nation of more than 330 million people to handle many aspects of the crisis at the state and local levels, is a plan he stumbled bassakwards into while trying to dodge responsibility.


Got me.

for ever one of your posts echoed above, there are at least a half dozen going the other direction...attempting to police everyone and make sure nobody gets too outraged

sure, you’ve offered some condemnation, but the majority of your posts since the beginning of the year have sought to normalize the current administration

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:26 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:16 am

seahawk wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 10:43 am DC's usual attempt to defend Trump

Trump has been at his Trumpiest, meaning that he has been petty, childish, self-absorbed, and woefully and willfully ignorant. Moreover, I think the smartest and most effective thing he has done, allowing an incredibly diverse nation of more than 330 million people to handle many aspects of the crisis at the state and local levels, is a plan he stumbled bassakwards into while trying to dodge responsibility.


Got me.

I honestly think your approach here is incredibly transparent. And, the fact that so many don't realize that can be pretty entertaining.

^^^^

pdub wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:35 am Seriously?
The guy was handcuffed.
The officer was pressing his knee into his neck for minutes despite him screaming that he couldn't breathe.

The police officer killed that man.
They need to be held responsible for mistakes like this.

First, neither of us knows exactly what transpired before the video. We know he resisted, and we know he was big guy, which means that if he was still struggling, even cuffed he could have been potentially dangerous. In that situation, the cop would have been taught to do (almost) exactly what he did: make the guy face away from him and apply pressure until he complies. As I said, the knee should have been on the head, not the neck, for two reasons: it hurts more and it avoids the possibility of what happened.

MOST LEOS are so poorly trained in this stuff that it's frankly surprising we don't see more incidents like this.

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:42 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:16 am

seahawk wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 10:43 am DC's usual attempt to defend Trump

Trump has been at his Trumpiest, meaning that he has been petty, childish, self-absorbed, and woefully and willfully ignorant. Moreover, I think the smartest and most effective thing he has done, allowing an incredibly diverse nation of more than 330 million people to handle many aspects of the crisis at the state and local levels, is a plan he stumbled bassakwards into while trying to dodge responsibility.


Got me.

for ever one of your posts echoed above, there are at least a half dozen going the other direction...attempting to police everyone and make sure nobody gets too outraged

sure, you’ve offered some condemnation, but the majority of your posts since the beginning of the year have sought to normalize the current administration

Yes. Normalize. Because Trump's transgressions are different from his predecessors' in degree, not type. This is the atmosphere we created and pissing and moaning about it at every turn isn't going to address the underlying issues.

He killed that man.
There is no way around that.
He killed him.

The man was handcuffed on the ground and he pressed his knee against his neck until he died.