Kansas Crimson

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:20 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:11 pm

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:07 pm eh…the UN seems as good a proxy as any

The radically anti-Israel, anti-Semitic UN?

That one?

if you’d like, i’m happy to post any number of Jewish-based, pro-Israel sites that support the notion of a palestinian people…even going so far as to argue that the denial of their existence is a direct assault to Israel’s security and any sort of long-term peace in the region

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:20 pm palestinian identity goes back hundreds of years…to at least the 1600s according to some

and that’s the last i’ll say. i’m done going round this circle. you’ve got a narrative to push, so you do you

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:24 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:59 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:04 am There’s also the radicalization concern; displace hundreds of thousands (or more) by razing Gaza City…and you’re creating a hell of a lot more enemies out of people who are presently children.

Again, sorry for causing such a fuss.

I promise I’m gonna try to play nice, and avoid personal attacks, or anything (hopefully) too controversial.

With that said…


I think your point here is extremely relevant.


Now realize this displacement issue has been going on for a lot longer than “presently.”



Or, if this map is inaccurate, please do correct me.


(ducks)

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that this issue is new.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:20 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:11 pm

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:07 pm eh…the UN seems as good a proxy as any

The radically anti-Israel, anti-Semitic UN?

That one?

if you’d like, i’m happy to post any number of Jewish-based, pro-Israel sites that support the notion of a palestinian people…even going so far as to argue that the denial of their existence is a direct assault to Israel’s security and any sort of long-term peace in the region

Mjl wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:12 pm Last time was Gaza. Israel made all their citizens leave. In response, rocket fire actually increased. Then Hamas came and killed (literally) the PLO/PA leadership there and took over. That's why Egypt (who somehow never gets criticism here) and Israel blockade them.

No, Israel has never taken land, in the current context, from the Palestinians. I mean, if the Palestinians (which is not what they were called at the time), who never had their own country, accepted the UN plan in 1947, that'd be one thing. But they rejected it and tried to wipe out the Jews in "Palestina EY" instead. So it was never their land because they never agreed to it, unlike Israel.

The West Bank and East Jerusalem were part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt from 1949-1967. Those countries did not give the Palestinians their own state.

In 1967 when the cease fire (not peace) was signed, Israel had control of the West Bank from Jordan, and Gaza and Sinai from Egypt. Eventually they gave back Sinai to Egypt in return for peace. They destroyed all the Israeli settler homes their and made them leave. In return, they had peace with Egypt, and it has held ever since. Egypt didn't want Gaza back. Israel later signed peace with Jordan - who had no desire to take back the West Bank as part of that deal.

This is why, when we were young, if you saw a map of Israel, it would have included the West Bank and Gaza. Israel worked with the PLO (now PA) to transfer the most populated areas of the West Bank to the Palestinians. Those are the areas now known as Area A and Area B, which have PA control (and which Jews are not even allowed in because they wouldn't be safe).

Israel pulled out of Gaza, and it was a disaster. This, amongst several other reasons (mostly the non-adherence to peace agreements by both sides) led to Israel halting the pull-out of the West Bank, so the least-populated part (Area C) and East Jerusalem are still Israeli controlled. That's where the settlements are. They were never a part of a Palestinian nation. I, and most Israelis, would like to see Israel eventually pull out of there.

tl;dr - no, Israel hasn't been taking land, it has been giving it up for peace.

mjl2 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 4:23 pm

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:20 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:11 pm

The radically anti-Israel, anti-Semitic UN?

That one?

if you’d like, i’m happy to post any number of Jewish-based, pro-Israel sites that support the notion of a palestinian people…even going so far as to argue that the denial of their existence is a direct assault to Israel’s security and any sort of long-term peace in the region

Technically DC is right.
Jews were considered Palestinians too because they were living in that territory.
Arafat co-opted the term in the 60s to describe Arabs who live in that territory.

Personally I don't really care and use terms like Palestinian and West Bank. I don't care what they're called, I want them to take responsibility for themselves and seek peace. They've had some really bad shit happen to them. So did many, many groups of people.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 4:49 pm
i think that narrative is dangerous, and doesn’t serve the goal of long-term peace…presuming that is, in fact, the goal

continuing to tell some 8 million people that their identity is a farce will only see us continue down this same road

edit: and i’m not even necessarily advocating for a 2-state solution. reports i’ve read indicate that a majority of Palestinians living and working in Israel (i think, but it may just be Jerusalem) have no issue being Israeli citizens. there were also reports of positive change in Gaza prior to this hamas shit storm, with Israeli businesses starting to flourish. my only point being that peace seems a possibility without invalidating Palestinians

i know this is a sensitive subject, and the last thing i want is to offend

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:05 pm

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 4:49 pm
i think that narrative is dangerous, and doesn’t serve the goal of long-term peace…presuming that is, in fact, the goal

continuing to tell some 8 million people that their identity is a farce will only see us continue down this same road

edit: and i’m not even necessarily advocating for a 2-state solution. reports i’ve read indicate that a majority of Palestinians living and working in Israel (i think, but it may just be Jerusalem) have no issue being Israeli citizens. there were also reports of positive change in Gaza prior to this hamas shit storm, with Israeli businesses starting to flourish. my only point being that peace seems a possibility without invalidating Palestinians

i know this is a sensitive subject, and the last thing i want is to offend

I think you're mirror-imaging here, assuming things that are likely not true because that's how you (and other Westerners) would think about them.

Much of the formative history of this conflict took place against the backdrop of Pan-Arabism, the era of the proposed Hashemite union and the reality of the United Arab Republic. Moreover, most Arabs traditionally identify in religious, rather than nationalistic terms.

Additionally, no one (at least here) has called their identity a "farce." I said the "nationality" didn't exist -- at least in the way we'd use the term. That's a fact, not a farce.