Kansas Crimson

All stats aside, senior Sherron did seem to regress. He was obviously bigger, which made him obviously less explosive. And loosing explosiveness - even a touch - is so big, particularly for an undersized scoring guard. His senior campaign shoulda been the best conditioning of his career, and yet, it wasn’t.

He had rumblings of leaving early as a sophomore, even despite being small, which was a testament largely to his quickness. But despite that, as a senior he barely got drafted in the second round. Then, the stories about missing flights and interviews with GMs and such. He was just coasting by on so much natural talent, without seemingly having the work ethic or discipline to be great.

Also, yea Self has been successful with less talent. But he still has never made a final four without at least 3 NBA players-to-be on the roster.

Best career at KU:
1. Sherron
2. Frank
3. Devonte

Best at basketball:
1. Devonte
2. Frank
3. Sherron

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:24 pm Best career at KU:
1. Sherron
2. Frank
3. Devonte

Best at basketball:
1. Devonte
2. Frank
3. Sherron

I can't put someone ahead, in college career, of a NPOY.

I dunno…Sherron was a very gifted basketball player, too. That’s how he maintained basketball success despite the poor conditioning.

So much so, he even got some NBA minutes despite being a 23yo human bowling ball (remember the time he hurt DWade?!)

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:30 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:24 pm Best career at KU:
1. Sherron
2. Frank
3. Devonte

Best at basketball:
1. Devonte
2. Frank
3. Sherron

I can't put someone ahead, in college career, of a NPOY.

Totally fair. Splitting hairs with Frank and Sherron. I can make arguments for both and knowing myself I probably have.

For me, I land with Sherron #1 because he was better for longer while at KU, and he played a key role in a national title winning team. It's a team sport and right or wrong team results matter when evaluating indivudal legacy.

Senior Frank wasn't freshman and sophomore (and part of junior) Frank. But my goodness was he likeable. Such an easy guy to cheer for. Sherron was also easy to cheer for, especially at first, but definitely had some negative energy around his time here from his off court issues.

Maybe Dajuan throws his hat in the topic of discussion by winning a title this year and next year and leaving with 3. He's also an easy guy to cheer for.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:37 pm So much so, he even got some NBA minutes despite being a 23yo human bowling ball (remember the time he hurt DWade?!)

20 total games.
3.3min per game.
Never played more than 14min in a game.
Career high 5pts.
Only scored in 5 of 20 games.

Wildly disappointing NBA career.

Also goes to show that college success doesn't always equal NBA success. Frank and Dotson have both been unable to contribute as well. Frank is at 103 games. Dotson at 28. For reference Tyshawn appeared in 61 games, averaging 8mpg, and starting 3 games.

Devonte at 319 games so far. Stud.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:30 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:24 pm Best career at KU:
1. Sherron
2. Frank
3. Devonte

Best at basketball:
1. Devonte
2. Frank
3. Sherron

I can't put someone ahead, in college career, of a NPOY.

Yea.
Pretty obviously for me.
And better at basketball also doesn’t work because Frank was better at basketball at KU than Vonte ever was.

Frank tops both those categories.

NBA career means almost absolutely nothing to me in these arguments. Kelly Oubre had a pretty meh Kansas career. He’s one of our better NBA players.

Add a third category Best in the NBA:
1. Vonte

2. Frank


3. Sherron

I've read a lot of opinions in the last couple of pages on this thread. All of them valid.
That being said, I'll take Self's opinion/s/words over everyone else's. Should I not?

Frank winning in Korea was a big boost for me. Those were great games, especially against Germany.

pdub wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:37 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:30 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:24 pm Best career at KU:
1. Sherron
2. Frank
3. Devonte

Best at basketball:
1. Devonte
2. Frank
3. Sherron

I can't put someone ahead, in college career, of a NPOY.

Yea.
Pretty obviously for me.
And better at basketball also doesn’t work because Frank was better at basketball at KU than Vonte ever was.

Frank tops both those categories.

NBA career means almost absolutely nothing to me in these arguments. Kelly Oubre had a pretty meh Kansas career. He’s one of our better NBA players.

Add a third category Best in the NBA:
1. Vonte

2. Frank


3. Sherron

I mean, Embiid and Wiggins are great NBA players....neither would sniff my list of great jayhawks. Thye had they're moments as jayhawks and I love what (Embiid especially) has done as an ambassador for the school but, they didn't stay long enough or have enough impact at KU to be considered on a list like this. In the most important moment, Embiid wasn't there, and Wiggins played like a free agent in a meaningless game and didn't want to hurt himself to cost himself future contracts.

Fran's question was, "if you could only have one point guard to run your team during the Bill Self era, who would it be." Fran eliminated Chalmers because he was a 2 guard. I am making the assumption that the question refers to my team being a COLLEGE team (so I do not give a rat's ass about NBA stats). Also, Jayhawk legacy has no relevance here... as the whim of the basketball gods and covid years and early departures play into that.
I have never let end-of-season losses flavor my feelings, no matter how sour. However, off-court shenanigans could possibly lend bias (when I think of Jayhawk favs) and they should not to answer Fran's question.
If the question were different, Sherron would be #1. For today's question, Sherron's example of poor leadership does not lead my team. SO MANY TIMES he tried to put the team on his back and it was very hard to watch as he got eaten up. There are other choices in the Self era that could have actually put the team on their back successfully. You will say that there was a year and some other months SC did successfully put the team on his back for an entire half, but that brings me back to leadership. I am not hating, these are youth, and watching their maturity and growth is part of the enjoyment of college basketball. But college SC is not my choice for Fran's question today.
This is so hard (so many great choices), but I am going with Devonte' Graham. He had great defense and great offense (just what a Self-led team wants). He played all the small-ball positions over the years (just like a Self-led team in a single game wants). He improved every year. Could make a 3. In his 1st freaking boot camp, professionals were singling him out as a great leader of men!
So, Fran, if I could only have one point guard to run my team during the Bill Self era, I would be very happy with senior-year Devonte' Graham.

ps: I think Graham would be a more popular choice if he played point longer. But recall that he was a year behind Frank Mason (a popular choice I could not argue as wrong).

to answer frans question. SC.

I have pretty much the same view as DrPepper.

When Sherron left, he was at the top of my list.

I would go with Graham, and only a tiny drop to 2nd for Frank.
Sherron would be my third.

Depends on what else the team has. Loaded team, Devonte. Not-so-loaded, Frank.

In Vonte's best year, he was one miss away from shooting sub 40% for the season.
That's a volume shooter on one of Bill's stronger offensive teams.
Frank shot almost 10% better and could get to the basket and finish quite a bit better than Vonte. He couldn't get space for his perimeter shots on his own quite like Vonte but I'd much rather have the ball in Mason's hands with the game on the line.

Both he and Frank made an all B12 defensive team once so they weren't significantly better or worse at defending than each other while at KU.

I'm going with the guy who won the NPOY and had the most points in a season under Bill Self.

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:11 pm In Vonte's best year, he was one miss away from shooting sub 40% for the season.
That's a volume shooter on one of Bill's stronger offensive teams.
Frank shot almost 10% better and could get to the basket and finish quite a bit better than Vonte. He couldn't get space for his perimeter shots on his own quite like Vonte but I'd much rather have the ball in Mason's hands with the game on the line.

Both he and Frank made an all B12 defensive team once so they weren't significantly better or worse at defending than each other while at KU.

I'm going with the guy who won the NPOY and had the most points in a season under Bill Self.

Yes. My response was also colored by how deadly Graham was off the catch…so he’s more of a weapon off the ball than Frank.

I agree.
But I prefer my point on the ball rather than off.

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:16 pm I agree.
But I prefer my point on the ball rather than off.

Absolutely. Just describing that the only case I would support picking Devonte…looks an awful lot like what it looked like playing WITH Frank.

Except that one time they played Oregon in Kansas City.

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:19 pm Except that one time they played Oregon in Kansas City.

That was a dark day that is best left in the dustbin.