Israel/Palestine

[ousdahl]

[jfish26]

Oh my. Stay for the end.

https://x.com/kanekoathegreat/status/17 ... q_-8Yt1KMA

[KUTradition]

talked to my brother last night (teaches at Hyman Brand in KC)

he estimated that the majority of friends and family in Israel with connections to the academy are members of the IDF. said it’s been a surreal, intense week

i can’t even imagine the worry and anxiety

[ousdahl]

The prime minister also repeated several claims that The Washington Post could not independently verify.

“We’ve seen … young women who were raped and massacred, combatants who were decapitated,” Netanyahu alleged, without providing evidence.

Later Wednesday, Biden expressed dismay over violent imagery coming out of the Israel-Gaza war at a White House event with Jewish leaders. In his remarks, Biden referred to unsubstantiated claims that had circulated widely on social media that Hamas had beheaded Israeli children.

“I’ve been doing this a long time,” Biden said at the White House. “I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”

A White House spokesperson later clarified that U.S. officials and the president have not seen pictures or confirmed such reports independently. The president based his comments about the alleged atrocities on the claims from Netanyahu’s spokesman and media reports from Israel, according to the White House.

In response to questions from The Post, an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson declined to comment on the state of victims’ bodies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... J4556IMXRI

[Shirley]

Sorry if this post belongs in the "Finding New Shit On TV" thread.
Be sure to set your DVR:

Hamas militants have vowed to broadcast their executions of Israeli hostages on the internet. Recent history shows there’s virtually nothing tech companies can do to prevent that from happening.

Live-streamed murders in Buffalo and Christchurch, New Zealand, remain visible on the web and have been viewed millions of times, long after the mass killings took place. Companies’ efforts to stop access to violent videos have been stymied by an open internet that makes it easy to watch, save and share videos at viral speed — and by the changing strategies of killers and propagandists, who can use a network of distributed online services to ensure the videos remain forever within reach...

The threat harks back to videos nearly a decade ago from the Islamic State, which spread fear and won attention by posting videos showing the beheadings of journalists, aid workers and other civilian captives. But those videos were prerecorded and edited. Hamas’ pledge to record and air executions that have yet to take place is new and seems calibrated to incite fear over the barbarism to come.

[...]

[twocoach]

Oh my. Stay for the end.

https://x.com/kanekoathegreat/status/17 ... q_-8Yt1KMA

This thread in a nutshell.

[jfish26]

The prime minister also repeated several claims that The Washington Post could not independently verify.

“We’ve seen … young women who were raped and massacred, combatants who were decapitated,” Netanyahu alleged, without providing evidence.

Later Wednesday, Biden expressed dismay over violent imagery coming out of the Israel-Gaza war at a White House event with Jewish leaders. In his remarks, Biden referred to unsubstantiated claims that had circulated widely on social media that Hamas had beheaded Israeli children.

“I’ve been doing this a long time,” Biden said at the White House. “I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”

A White House spokesperson later clarified that U.S. officials and the president have not seen pictures or confirmed such reports independently. The president based his comments about the alleged atrocities on the claims from Netanyahu’s spokesman and media reports from Israel, according to the White House.

In response to questions from The Post, an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson declined to comment on the state of victims’ bodies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... J4556IMXRI

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so please do tell us why pics of headless kids are needed.

[ousdahl]

Oh, they are very much NOT needed. Not one bit!

And I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, so please do tell us what you struggle to understand about the potus dramatically - even propagandistically? - claiming he saw confirmed pics of terrorists beheading children, only to have the White House then clarify the potus and US officials have NOT seen such pics, nor confirmed such reports.

[jfish26]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures. I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

[mjl2]

Oh my. Stay for the end.

https://x.com/kanekoathegreat/status/17 ... q_-8Yt1KMA

This thread in a nutshell.

Just because you don't know much about the issue doesn't mean both sides are equal

[Sparko]

Pretty hard to justify Q's flailing posts

[mjl2]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures. I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

He's just trying to be Goebbels but is too stupid to do it well.

The report has been corroborated by several sources. Who knows if it's true, there's incorrect reporting on things early in a war all the time.

The outright denial of it is just propaganda that is supposed to be saying "this one claim was false (though we don't actually know that) therefore everything is a lie and what Hamas did isn't that bad".

It's seriously sick and evil. It's the same sort of thing Holocaust deniers do.

Q keeps attacking victims with propaganda. Evil. He's truly evil.

[jfish26]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures. I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

He's just trying to be Goebbels but is too stupid to do it well.

The report has been corroborated by several sources. Who knows if it's true, there's incorrect reporting on things early in a war all the time.

The outright denial of it is just propaganda that is supposed to be saying "this one claim was false (though we don't actually know that) therefore everything is a lie and what Hamas did isn't that bad".

It's seriously sick and evil. It's the same sort of thing Holocaust deniers do.

Q keeps attacking victims with propaganda. Evil. He's truly evil.

That's the thing here.

If, with all of the hard, confirmed evidence of the atrocities that ARE occurring, you fixate on one particular atrocity that you have not yet seen evidence as a way of undercutting the high ground of a person suffering atrocities...you simply ARE playing into the hands of the person committing the atrocities.

I don't think ANYONE thinks this is a black-and-white issue. I don't think ANYONE thinks Israel has done right by the civilians in the Gaza Strip.

However, "pics or it didn't happen" simply IS, in this context, a talking point that is favorable to the aggressors in this conflict (and their backers).

[MICHHAWK]

sure he is an idiot/moron. but he is tasked by the site owners to push content. he has a job to do.

[mjl2]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures. I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

He's just trying to be Goebbels but is too stupid to do it well.

The report has been corroborated by several sources. Who knows if it's true, there's incorrect reporting on things early in a war all the time.

The outright denial of it is just propaganda that is supposed to be saying "this one claim was false (though we don't actually know that) therefore everything is a lie and what Hamas did isn't that bad".

It's seriously sick and evil. It's the same sort of thing Holocaust deniers do.

Q keeps attacking victims with propaganda. Evil. He's truly evil.

That's the thing here.

If, with all of the hard, confirmed evidence of the atrocities that ARE occurring, you fixate on one particular atrocity that you have not yet seen evidence as a way of undercutting the high ground of a person suffering atrocities...you simply ARE playing into the hands of the person committing the atrocities.

I don't think ANYONE thinks this is a black-and-white issue. I don't think ANYONE thinks Israel has done right by the civilians in the Gaza Strip.

However, "pics or it didn't happen" simply IS, in this context, a talking point that is favorable to the aggressors in this conflict (and their backers).

Exactly

[KUTradition]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures. I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

the report, apparently, originated first from an IDF commander

as reported in The Times of Israel:

A reporter from i24 News said that an IDF commander told her that they had found the bodies of some 40 babies, some of whom had been beheaded

from BusinessInsider:

IDF says it won’t back up it’s claim that Hamas decapitated babies in Israel because it is ‘disrespectful for the dead’

does it really matter, in the grand scheme of things? the attack was barbaric, regardless of any specific details

[jfish26]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures. I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

the report, apparently, originated first from an IDF commander

as reported in The Times of Israel:

A reporter from i24 News said that an IDF commander told her that they had found the bodies of some 40 babies, some of whom had been beheaded

from BusinessInsider:

IDF says it won’t back up it’s claim that Hamas decapitated babies in Israel because it is ‘disrespectful for the dead’

does it really matter, in the grand scheme of things? the attack was barbaric, regardless of any specific details

No, it doesn't really matter. That's what makes fixating on it so troubling.

[ousdahl]

somebody ask mjl if maybe the more evil thing to do is pick and choose which war crimes are war crimes, and which war crimes are A-OK cuz at least they (maybe) give warnings before bombing family households, or cuz they started it so even them women and children deserve it, or whatever fucked up evil logic you try to push to justify war crimes.

someone also ask mjl to share his sources that corroborated stories that he even admits "Who knows if it's true, there's incorrect reporting on things early in a war all the time," and even the White House clarified they had not seen, and even the IDF declined to comment when they coulda just hit a grand slam of bonafide evidence of such war crimes if they DID exist. (can't make this shit up!)

someone also tell mjl that I don't deny the Holocaust happened! And it was awful, and we should take any such atrocities seriously in hopes we can prevent them from ever happening again! But the thing is, we should prevent them from happening to ANY people, not just the people you don't wanna see it happen to, while tacitly condoning if and when it happens to people you couldn't care less about and would rather just blanket dehumanize and label as "terrorists" instead.

someone also tell mjl I don't mean to attack anyone. I DO mean to point out propaganda so shameless that even Biden's own White House felt the need to speak up about Biden peddling as much. You guys do realize both sides use propaganda...right?

like, for real, if mjl's world views rely so heavily on gaslighting and personal attacks, that kinda says a lot about those views.

[jfish26]

somebody ask mjl if maybe the more evil thing to do is pick and choose which war crimes are war crimes, and which war crimes are A-OK cuz at least they (sometimes) give warnings before bombing family households, or cuz they started it so even them women and children deserve it, or whatever fucked up evil logic you try to push to justify war crimes.

someone also ask mjl to share his sources that corroborated stories that he even admits "Who knows if it's true, there's incorrect reporting on things early in a war all the time," and even the White House clarified they had not seen, and even the IDF declined to comment when they coulda just hit a grand slam of bonafide evidence of such war crimes if they DID exist. (can't make this shit up!)

someone also tell mjl that I don't deny the Holocaust happened! And it was awful, and we should take any such atrocities seriously in hopes we can prevent them from ever happening again! But the thing is, we should prevent them from happening to ANY people, not just the people you don't wanna see it happen to, while tacitly condoning if and when it happens to people you couldn't care less about and would rather just blanket dehumanize and label as "terrorists" instead.

someone also tell mjl I don't mean to attack anyone. I DO mean to point out propaganda so shameless that even Biden's own White House felt the need to speak up about Biden peddling as much. You guys do realize both sides use propaganda...right?

like, for real, if mjl's world views rely so heavily on gaslighting and personal attacks, that kinda says a lot about those views.

But again: you're talking about not having seen pictures of one very specific thing (even though there are many many many pictures of things that are, sadly, pretty much the same thing really). Your tone would be much more appropriate if what was missing was, like, evidence of Hamas having attacked at all.

[ousdahl]

so by that logic, if Colin Powell circa 2003 came out with his claim of evidence of WMDs, and later that day the pentagon came out like, "actually we don't have that evidence," you'd keep doubling down on, "but there really MUST be WMDs in Iraq, cuz we've seen pretty much the same thing really

I don't deny Hamas attacked Israel! And it was awful, and don't mean to shrug it off one bit, as it should be condemned!

I just also don't deny that Israel has been absolutely fucking brutal to Palestine, and - like you yourself suggested, fish, as well as DC, even - the crimes-against-humanity sort of conditions the Israelis have subjected Palestinians to have very much contributed to the issue.

I think what concerns me, is the one-sidedness of the rhetoric, and the attitudes, and the Islamophobia, and the "but THEY started it" sort of good guy bad guy unilateral these-things-happen-in-a-vacuum sort of mindset (sound familiar?), which all seems to be getting pushed right now as justification for yet another war with no end in sight.

So, with all that said, let's ask: in light of the Hamas attack on Israel, how much and how long and how big of a militant Israeli response is appropriate? Should we just let this one too go on and on with no end in sight? Are you OK with the Israelis bombing family households* wiping Gaza off the face of the earth?



*that's the one instance that even mjl admitted to happening, but also is totally cool with it happening, and seems fine with normalizing it, on the "warning" pretense. As if warnings make war crimes OK. There's also New York Times reports that Israelis are also indiscriminately bombing hospitals, ambulances, markets, mosques, often without warning...but, as DC pointed out, since the NYT's sources on that one are in Gaza, I guess we can all assume it's just more pro-Putin propaganda or whatever.



At some point, you guys gotta realize, the only difference between me and you is, I struggle to pick and choose which war crimes are really war crimes, and which war crimes are actually are no big deal.