Kenosha

[ousdahl]

Of course I’m upset he killed people!

I don’t think he would have, but for the fact he brought a gun.

I don’t think anyone else should have had a gun either. But whether anyone else had a gun doesn’t make it ok for Kyle to bring a gun too, especially not when he’s gotta drive a half hour out of his way to go there.

And you seem to gloss over the fact that the only person who shot anyone that night was Kyle. Let’s not downplay that just cuz other folks had guns too. Of course other folks had guns, it’s fucking Merica.

This kid went looking for trouble. Let’s stop acting so surprised he found it.

I’m honestly not sure what you’re trying to argue

[ousdahl]

Why does it matter? Your argument just enables bothsiderism since both sides had people do what you're describing.

The difference is Kyle murdered people.

I’m not sure I follow.

You’re the one who insinuated he really was just protecting his own community cuz it’s not like he went 200 miles about it.

I'm saying far north suburbs of Chicago could be considered one community, yes. And that arguing over that kind of minutiae misses the point.

Rather than stay home safe and sound, he went 20 miles out of his way to an area he wasn’t supposed to be with a gun he wasn’t supposed to have.

And rather than acknowledge that, you’re going full gusher with the geography smack talk

[TDub]

Not surprised that Mjl is on Team Kyle

he's not. you cant read.

[Mjl]

Not surprised that Mjl is on Team Kyle

Not surprising that you don't know how to read

[Mjl]

Of course I’m upset he killed people!

I don’t think he would have, but for the fact he brought a gun.

I don’t think anyone else should have had a gun either. But whether anyone else had a gun doesn’t make it ok for Kyle to bring a gun too, especially not when he’s gotta drive a half hour out of his way to go there.

And you seem to gloss over the fact that the only person who shot anyone that night was Kyle. Let’s not downplay that just cuz other folks had guns too. Of course other folks had guns, it’s fucking Merica.

This kid went looking for trouble. Let’s stop acting so surprised he found it.

I’m honestly not sure what you’re trying to argue

It's the exact opposite. You're glossing over that by only emphasizing having a gun there and coming from 20 miles away and by arguing against me when I say "The difference is Kyle murdered people".

I am saying that the bolded part is by far the thing that really matters most here.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

You’re trying to say Antioch is close enough to Kenosha to count as his community?

They’re about 20 miles apart, about a half hour drive.

So let’s corroborate this then. What connections did Kyle have to Kenosha? Did he have fam or friends or business? How often did he go there? Did he bring an assault rifle every time?

Or was he going for no other reason than there was shit going down?

Connections to Kenosha - His father and other family members live there.

[ousdahl]

Oh. Right on.

Has that played any role in the trial arguments?

Even if it has I’m not sure it matters much, or does anything to justify him going out after curfew with a weapon he wasn’t allowed to have

[Cascadia]

Oh. Right on.

Has that played any role in the trial arguments?

Even if it has I’m not sure it matters much, or does anything to justify him going out after curfew with a weapon he wasn’t allowed to have

It did come up during his cross examination, but the prosecutor did a pretty good job of pointing out that he didn't live with his father.

And, you're right, it doesn't matter. Kyle was there to protect his "community" he was their to play real life Call of Duty.

[Cascadia]

I may have already posted this, but one of the highlights of his cross examination was claiming he knew it was against the law for him to own a handgun but he thought it was OK to own an AR 15.

To the judges credit, he did emphatically inform the jury that it didn't matter if Kyle thought is was legal, it was still illegal. There a specific legal term for this that I'm sure fish or cnb would know.

[Mjl]

Oh. Right on.

Has that played any role in the trial arguments?

Even if it has I’m not sure it matters much, or does anything to justify him going out after curfew with a weapon he wasn’t allowed to have

Now you're getting it!

[ousdahl]

Then why in the H-E-double hockey sticks did you bring it up?

This whole debate started with you insinuating it did matter!

Would things be different if he went 200 miles away to do this?

[Mjl]

Then why in the H-E-double hockey sticks did you bring it up?

This whole debate started with you insinuating it did matter!

Would things be different if he went 200 miles away to do this?

No, and that's my point. I didn't bring up where he came from to do this, you did. I responded to that.

My point is that you're bringing things into the argument that don't matter. This is where progressives lose arguments - by bringing in refutable stuff and missing the things that actually matter.

e.g. talking ad nauseam about Trump saying to drink bleach (refutable because he didn't, and because the real quote was just him being an idiot, which in and of itself isn't that big of a deal), while mostly ignoring the fact that he put a radiologist in as the "medical expert" for his Covid task force, which actually contributed towards killing people.

[Mjl]

Basically I want there to be people making rational arguments about things that matter - I think this post-fact world is really dangerous. On both sides. More on the right, Trumpism is pro-facism. But I also fear a party that's starting to sound like Pol Pot when talking about Capitalists.

[Deleted User 89]

but the “irrelevant” things do matter in this instance when they are talking points of the defense, and by extension things that potentially sway jurors

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

[Deleted User 89]

jfc…

kan-ga-roo

[Mjl]

but the “irrelevant” things do matter in this instance when they are talking points of the defense, and by extension things that potentially sway jurors

That's where I disagree. It's the old political adage "If you're explaining, you're losing." Getting caught up in minutiae is probably going to end up giving us a hung jury, imo. The simple case is he brandished a gun at a place he knew would be a volatile situation, and someone tried to take it from him. That doesn't give you the right to kill someone. .

[ousdahl]

OK.

You countered my point that he wasn’t even from the same state, and in a “I don’t disagree this wasn’t self-defense but” kinda way.

That came across as you insinuating maybe he was more justifiably defending himself, since Kenosha and Antioch could be considered the same community.

To clarify the context I used it in, it’s that he went out to the volatile situation, it didn’t come to him. Whether he went 20 miles or 200, the point is, he sought it out.

And then - you accuse ME of bringing things into the argument that don’t matter. OK, then I’ll refrain from discussing Trump and bleach and Pol Pot in the Kenosha thread.

[Deleted User 89]

but the “irrelevant” things do matter in this instance when they are talking points of the defense, and by extension things that potentially sway jurors

That's where I disagree. It's the old political adage "If you're explaining, you're losing." Getting caught up in minutiae is probably going to end up giving us a hung jury, imo. The simple case is he brandished a gun at a place he knew would be a volatile situation, and someone tried to take it from him. That doesn't give you the right to kill someone. .

i’m with you

i’m not saying it should matter. it absolutely shouldn’t. i’m just saying it will matter because the jury is hearing it. will it matter enough to any of them to find justification in the little shit’s actions?

we’ll see, but my guess is that it will because, well, people suck

[ousdahl]

Could the judge prohibit the “protect his community” language? Like he did with the “victim” language. Has the community language been used in court like it has on Fox News?

He said he would allow the “rioters and looters” language, assuming the defense provides evidence the guys shot were engaged in such activity.

But so far, the only one charged with anything is Kyle.

And yet, so many still view Kyle as some do-gooder Merican with a heart o’ gold - in large part, cuz of how the defense has portrayed him.