Kansas Crimson

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:45 pm
so how much of an Israeli counter-offensive do you think is appropriate here?

Are you asking what is appropriate for Israel to do? Or is what you are asking what is appropriate for the United States to support rhetorically? Or is what you are asking is what is appropriate for the United States to support in the manner we've supported Ukraine? Or is what you are asking what is appropriate for the United States to support with troops in harm's way?

yes

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:08 pmyes

But those are very different questions. And that's the point here - the details matter. A lot.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:06 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:45 pm
so how much of an Israeli counter-offensive do you think is appropriate here?

Are you asking what is appropriate for Israel to do? Or is what you are asking what is appropriate for the United States to support rhetorically? Or is what you are asking is what is appropriate for the United States to support in the manner we've supported Ukraine? Or is what you are asking what is appropriate for the United States to support with troops in harm's way?

Separately, this is the one that concerns me. And it's why my initial reaction is that Israel is fucked. Because there are two ends - one being not enough, which just incentivizes and enables future attacks, the other being too much, killing innocent people. And the problem is that, if you put those on a spectrum, they overlap. The middle is both.

According to Sec of State Anthony Blinken who is in Israel, Bibi showed him pictures of babies who were burned alive, but not beheaded.

ousdahl 1

war mongers 0

KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:22 am having given this some thought over the past few days, i think the strongest thing Israel and it’s allies could do right now would be to push forward with the Saudi relationship. it seems to me that such normalization is exactly the sort of thing hamas, hezbollah, and iran would want to prevent

I wish they could proceed, too.

Unfortunately, as much as I'm sure MBS wants it to go through too in order to isolate Iran, he has to proceed with caution. As much tension as there is between Sunni and Shia Muslims, one thing that could unite them is a common enemy, Israel. And while it appears that MBS rules Saudi Arabia with an iron fist, the orthodox Sunni leaders there are not happy with the way he has westernized society, including but not limited to getting rid of the religious police and allowing women to drive and travel without requiring they secure a male chaperon or permission before doing so.

So, if MBS holds the line and acts as if the deal with Israel is going thru despite the attack by Hamas, and then Israel goes too medieval on Gaza and ends up being a pariah in the eyes of pretty much everyone else in the area except the Israelis, it could set the movement back and cause him lots of problems that might be avoided if he waits until passions calm, whenever that might be.

But if I were you, I'd ask Randy.

Israel cutting off power and gas to Gaza with troops amassed on the border - I am wondering if the strategy is to make Gazans so desperate that they rise up against Hamas.

If so, man, that's risky. If they are unwilling or unable, it's going to backfire. On the other hand - it seems like the only chance to see the hostages alive and eliminate Hamas. Big potential upside, big potential downside.

...or they're just trying to eliminate Hamas' ability to communicate and trying to get them to give themselves up... which I just don't see happening. Nobody cares about Palestinian lives less than Hamas.

heavy, heavy lunchtime listening

https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/10/12 ... mas-attack

one can only hope that a refugee corridor will be opened prior to any major on-ground offensive

Shirley wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:53 pm

KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:22 am having given this some thought over the past few days, i think the strongest thing Israel and it’s allies could do right now would be to push forward with the Saudi relationship. it seems to me that such normalization is exactly the sort of thing hamas, hezbollah, and iran would want to prevent

I wish they could proceed, too.

Unfortunately, as much as I'm sure MBS wants it to go through too in order to isolate Iran, he has to proceed with caution. As much tension as there is between Sunni and Shia Muslims, one thing that could unite them is a common enemy, Israel. And while it appears that MBS rules Saudi Arabia with an iron fist, the orthodox Sunni leaders there are not happy with the way he has westernized society, including but not limited to getting rid of the religious police and allowing women to drive and travel without requiring they secure a male chaperon or permission before doing so.

So, if MBS holds the line and acts as if the deal with Israel is going thru despite the attack by Hamas, and then Israel goes too medieval on Gaza and ends up being a pariah in the eyes of pretty much everyone else in the area except the Israelis, it could set the movement back and cause him lots of problems that might be avoided if he waits until passions calm, whenever that might be.

nobody said it would be easy

but, were the developments of Israel’s relationships with others in the region any less difficult?

mjl2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:02 pm Israel cutting off power and gas to Gaza with troops amassed on the border - I am wondering if the strategy is to make Gazans so desperate that they rise up against Hamas.

If so, man, that's risky. If they are unwilling or unable, it's going to backfire. On the other hand - it seems like the only chance to see the hostages alive and eliminate Hamas. Big potential upside, big potential downside.

...or they're just trying to eliminate Hamas' ability to communicate and trying to get them to give themselves up... which I just don't see happening. Nobody cares about Palestinian lives less than Hamas.

This is what is meant by saying there are no good answers here. And why Israel’s desire for US involvement matters, a lot. It may well be that they want to go much further than what we can reasonably be expected to attach ourselves to.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:13 pm

mjl2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:02 pm Israel cutting off power and gas to Gaza with troops amassed on the border - I am wondering if the strategy is to make Gazans so desperate that they rise up against Hamas.

If so, man, that's risky. If they are unwilling or unable, it's going to backfire. On the other hand - it seems like the only chance to see the hostages alive and eliminate Hamas. Big potential upside, big potential downside.

...or they're just trying to eliminate Hamas' ability to communicate and trying to get them to give themselves up... which I just don't see happening. Nobody cares about Palestinian lives less than Hamas.

This is what is meant by saying there are no good answers here. And why Israel’s desire for US involvement matters, a lot. It may well be that they want to go much further than what we can reasonably be expected to attach ourselves to.

^^^^^^

that’s why Biden (and Blinken, i’m sure) was adamant about any response being within the confines of international humanitarian law

mjl2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:04 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:52 pm

mjl2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:55 am

Just because you don't know much about the issue doesn't mean both sides are equal

OK, cool. I said nothing of the sort and commented because it is just a bunch of irrational screaming at the slightest inkling of someone saying something you might disagree with.

Thanks for proving my point.

Besides Q and Mich, what is irrational?

Best of luck to all of you in this conversation.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:08 pm one can only hope that a refugee corridor will be opened prior to any major on-ground offensive

Egypt has already said, "Thanks, but no thanks."

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 3:00 pm

KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:08 pm one can only hope that a refugee corridor will be opened prior to any major on-ground offensive

Egypt has already said, "Thanks, but no thanks."

yeah, i saw that

tough situation, for sure

twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:55 pm

mjl2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:04 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:52 pm

OK, cool. I said nothing of the sort and commented because it is just a bunch of irrational screaming at the slightest inkling of someone saying something you might disagree with.

Thanks for proving my point.

Besides Q and Mich, what is irrational?

Best of luck to all of you in this conversation.

Why stop at this conversation? As best I can tell, the whole politics bored is "just a bunch of irrational screaming at the slightest inkling of someone saying something you might disagree with."

We should probably have PDub just shut it down. And then we should never discuss the issues herein ever again. Anywhere. In any context. Cuz, after all, it's gonna end up, eventually with just a bunch of irrational screaming at the slightest inkling of someone saying something you might disagree with.

Better, I think, just to assume that none of it matters, that the screaming and stuff just isn't worth it.

The world would be much more peaceful if we'd all do that, right? If we'd all just agree that none of this shit matters, as long as we have bread and circus font! RCJH!

depends on the bread

I missed something.

mjl2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:02 pm Israel cutting off power and gas to Gaza with troops amassed on the border - I am wondering if the strategy is to make Gazans so desperate that they rise up against Hamas.

If so, man, that's risky. If they are unwilling or unable, it's going to backfire. On the other hand - it seems like the only chance to see the hostages alive and eliminate Hamas. Big potential upside, big potential downside.

...or they're just trying to eliminate Hamas' ability to communicate and trying to get them to give themselves up... which I just don't see happening. Nobody cares about Palestinian lives less than Hamas.

About all the Palestinian people could do is throw rocks, bricks etc…at them.

dolomite wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:45 pm

mjl2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:02 pm Israel cutting off power and gas to Gaza with troops amassed on the border - I am wondering if the strategy is to make Gazans so desperate that they rise up against Hamas.

If so, man, that's risky. If they are unwilling or unable, it's going to backfire. On the other hand - it seems like the only chance to see the hostages alive and eliminate Hamas. Big potential upside, big potential downside.

...or they're just trying to eliminate Hamas' ability to communicate and trying to get them to give themselves up... which I just don't see happening. Nobody cares about Palestinian lives less than Hamas.

About all the Palestinian people could do is throw rocks, bricks etc…at them.

Right. I mean, I think, I don't know.
Plus I oversimplify things by separating Hamas and other Palestinians like it's some binary thing. It's not like there are Hamas membership cards.