Kansas Crimson

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:03 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:43 am More on topic:

Is Gradey the key to the season?

17 ppg, and we're a legit F4 contender.

13 ppg, and we're like 2nd-4th in the Big 12.

A nod to Jalen, here, as his development also means a lot. The 5 spot, too. So much riding on Gradey's offense, though.

i’d even go more specific and say his outside shooting is what’s so important, given the apparent lack of that ability across the rest of the roster

That was implied, but yes.

Biggest weakness is likely to be halfcourt offense. I don't see anyone else on the roster that can change who we are there, at least not to the degree that Gradey can. Udeh seems like a frosh Udoka.

so....MICH is gonna love the big guy...



but not for 3 more years

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:09 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:02 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:33 am

I don't want to get in to too much of a statistical analysis argument, but to me, the difference between 18 and 15 is quite significant, especially when the 18 was on a team that averaged 78 ppg. Granted, the tournament was different given Remy's emergence.

On a less argumentative note, and to MICH's point, if you want to consider the great KU players of the Self era, Och might have competition for that spot, but no one has a better argument.

geography bias?

i’d say BIFM might have the strongest argument

No geography bias. Mason in the competition, but it's not a better argument than finishing 2nd in NPOY and winning F4 MOP (which we know what that means for the team). Och played 4 years. Has the story--I am assuming here that "great" means there is room for subjective factors. Mason's senior season was statistically great and has the individual hardware. Och bests him pretty much everywhere else.

Och is probably the better story, too, but only slightly

Frank’s NPOY >>>>>>>>> Och’s MOP, imo. i don’t recall where you fell in the discussions when the award was announced, but there was plenty of controversy with Dave not getting it

put me in the camp where BIFM and Och are 1a and 1b, in whatever order you want

Udehs growth on defense and gradys shooting on offense. We haven't played anybody yet so it hasn't exposed how back we need a center. Love KJs energy and hustle but he shouldn't have to be that guy

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:19 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:09 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:02 am
geography bias?

i’d say BIFM might have the strongest argument

No geography bias. Mason in the competition, but it's not a better argument than finishing 2nd in NPOY and winning F4 MOP (which we know what that means for the team). Och played 4 years. Has the story--I am assuming here that "great" means there is room for subjective factors. Mason's senior season was statistically great and has the individual hardware. Och bests him pretty much everywhere else.

Och is probably the better story, too, but only slightly

Frank’s NPOY >>>>>>>>> Och’s MOP, imo. i don’t recall where you fell in the discussions when the award was announced, but there was plenty of controversy with Dave not getting it

put me in the camp where BIFM and Och are 1a and 1b, in whatever order you want

I agree that the hardware is certainly better on its face. But the F4 MOP means Och went to a Final Four and won the National Championship. And his regular season was good enough to win NPOY in other seasons.

But, the Natty is such a trump card, and then consider that Och started on TWO teams that finished the season ranked #1.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:09 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:02 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:33 am

I don't want to get in to too much of a statistical analysis argument, but to me, the difference between 18 and 15 is quite significant, especially when the 18 was on a team that averaged 78 ppg. Granted, the tournament was different given Remy's emergence.

On a less argumentative note, and to MICH's point, if you want to consider the great KU players of the Self era, Och might have competition for that spot, but no one has a better argument.

geography bias?

i’d say BIFM might have the strongest argument

No geography bias. Mason in the competition, but it's not a better argument than finishing 2nd in NPOY and winning F4 MOP (which we know what that means for the team). Och played 4 years. Has the story--I am assuming here that "great" means there is room for subjective factors. Mason's senior season was statistically great and has the individual hardware. Och bests him pretty much everywhere else.

Mason's is clearly a better argument.
He won NPOY and his stats beat Ochai on every level.
In the loss v Nova, he had 16. His senior year, the loss to Oregon, he had 21.
Not his fault that Vonte decided not to show to Kansas City.

As for Ochai's F4 MOP is an eye roll as we know ( as did Bill Self ) who deserved that. Ochai had a pretty bad title game ( and Dave had a great title game ) and the game before, Nova, Dave was even better. Also, not sure where Ochai is 2nd in NPOY voting. Johnny Davis, Keegan Murray and Kofi Cockburn got more votes in AP. Naismith the votes I don't believe were revealed but I believe he was one of four finalists.

Frank ends up 6th on KU's all time scoring list and 7th on KU's all time assist list.
Ochai 15th all time scoring.

and we can obviously disagree, but the natty is a TEAM accomplishment/award, which isn’t really the subject at hand

Matt Kleinmann has a natty (only halfway joking)

FWIW, the bored voted on this a bit ago and a NCAA title ended up low on the list in terms of individual accomplishments.

viewtopic.php?p=186555#p186555

jhawks99 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:40 am Senior SC wasn't all that. Junior SC was pretty freaking good.

Senior SC was a consensus AA.

Good grief. Some of you let your personal feelings towards players really influence your ability to analyze their abilities and careers.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:43 am and we can obviously disagree, but the natty is a TEAM accomplishment/award, which isn’t really the subject at hand

Matt Kleinmann has a natty (only halfway joking)

But the subject at hand is also not who had the best individual statistical season. Or even best individual season. When MICH says "greatest JAYHAWK," he is talking about lore. Otherwise, Sherron would have no business being in the conversation (and I think he does belong).

Team success reflects on the very best players on a certain team. Fair or unfair, that's how it has always been. And, I do think there is something to say about the best player in how far they can take a team. There are obviously caveats, but MJ would not be in the conversation of GOAT if it weren't for the titles. Bringing up Randy Brown and Bill Wennington would be a complete red herring.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:53 am

jhawks99 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:40 am Senior SC wasn't all that. Junior SC was pretty freaking good.

Senior SC was a consensus AA.

Good grief. Some of you let your personal feelings towards players really influence your ability to analyze their abilities and careers.

Eh, I liken SC getting consensus AA in 2010 to Denzel winning an Oscar for Training Day and not Malcolm X.

But Collins was better in 2010 than what this board gives him credit for.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:21 pm

is that Och at the very top?

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:56 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:43 am and we can obviously disagree, but the natty is a TEAM accomplishment/award, which isn’t really the subject at hand

Matt Kleinmann has a natty (only halfway joking)

But the subject at hand is also not who had the best individual statistical season. Or even best individual season. When MICH says "greatest JAYHAWK," he is talking about lore. Otherwise, Sherron would have no business being in the conversation (and I think he does belong).

Team success reflects on the very best players on a certain team. Fair or unfair, that's how it has always been. And, I do think there is something to say about the best player in how far they can take a team. There are obviously caveats, but MJ would not be in the conversation of GOAT if it weren't for the titles. Bringing up Randy Brown and Bill Wennington would be a complete red herring.

i think SC belongs in the convo too (sorry, cascadia)

and i agree that team success reflects on how individuals get remembered…how could it not? but as the uber-official and highly touted and cited kcrim votes show, the natty just doesn’t seem to have as much clout when comparing individual players head-to-head

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:08 pm

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:56 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:43 am and we can obviously disagree, but the natty is a TEAM accomplishment/award, which isn’t really the subject at hand

Matt Kleinmann has a natty (only halfway joking)

But the subject at hand is also not who had the best individual statistical season. Or even best individual season. When MICH says "greatest JAYHAWK," he is talking about lore. Otherwise, Sherron would have no business being in the conversation (and I think he does belong).

Team success reflects on the very best players on a certain team. Fair or unfair, that's how it has always been. And, I do think there is something to say about the best player in how far they can take a team. There are obviously caveats, but MJ would not be in the conversation of GOAT if it weren't for the titles. Bringing up Randy Brown and Bill Wennington would be a complete red herring.

i think SC belongs in the convo too (sorry, cascadia)

and i agree that team success reflects on how individuals get remembered…how could it not? but as the uber-official and highly touted and cited kcrim votes show, the natty just doesn’t seem to have as much clout when comparing individual players head-to-head

It's a big part of the package, not the only part, not the very most important part, but a big part. And now that we have 4 of them, KU fans should stop pretending and downplaying how big of a deal and how awesome they are. It's also relative, 2002 is more a feather in the cap for Och than 2008 is for Aldrich.

It might be easier to see from afar--Tshiebwe essentially matched what Mason did for a season and in no way will Tshiebwe be thought of as one of the Kentucky greats. There's just more to it.

A big part ( National Title, MOP ) for you.
( well, for todays argument it is ):

viewtopic.php?p=185815#p185815

Obviously not as big a part for the majority of this bored.

As far as Tshiebwe, a. we'll see how he does this season and b. he was a transfer so he's only played one year for Kentucky - different than a Frank Mason or Ochai.

And since the NCAA tournament is very important to you, here are their career NCAA tourney stats.

Ochai: 12.3 PPG, 4 RPG, 1.3 APG, 1.3 SPG, 44% FG.
Frank: 15 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 4.3 APG, 1 SPG, 48% FG.

Senior year:
Ochai: 13.7 PPG, 4 RPG, 1.5 APG, 1.5 SPG, 47.6% FG.
Frank: 22.3 PPG, 5 RPG, 6 APG, 1 SPG, 50.8% FG.

Frank was a badass

So was Ochai - for sure.

But this "Mason's senior season was statistically great and has the individual hardware. Och bests him pretty much everywhere else" is not true.

Only place where he 'bests' Mason is the fact that his team* got a good draw, David McCormack beasted in the title game, and ended up winning 3 more games in the tournament.

*in fact, 2016's team went 33-5, got f'd by the officials v Nova, and ended up finishing higher in Kenpom than 22. 17's 31-5 team was basically identical in Kenpom to 22.

I think I gotta rank em:
1. Danny
2. Frank
3. Sherron

Original argument was Self era.