Kansas Crimson

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:28 am

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:12 am Self sure has brought in a bunch of bad apples in his time at KU.
( btw saying Self has brought in a bunch of bad apples does not imply that I don't think Self also has brought in a bunch of good apples )

I think it is the nature of the pool of players they are fishing in, not a knock on Self specifically. I think that both football and basketball has a higher percentage of humans more prone to these types of situations than the general pool of humans in that age range.

Tell me more.

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:28 am

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:12 am Self sure has brought in a bunch of bad apples in his time at KU.
( btw saying Self has brought in a bunch of bad apples does not imply that I don't think Self also has brought in a bunch of good apples )

I think it is the nature of the pool of players they are fishing in, not a knock on Self specifically. I think that both football and basketball has a higher percentage of humans more prone to these types of situations than the general pool of humans in that age range.

Part of it, too - and take it to the Politics bored! - is that from before these kids are even teenagers, they are often others' meal/lottery tickets. It is very, very difficult for parents/coaches/etc. to hold kids accountable, where (for example) something as modest as being benched for a game or tournament can cause the kid to miss out on next level opportunities.

This isn't intended to blame or absolve anyone - just an illustration of the complexity of the issue.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:31 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:28 am

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:12 am Self sure has brought in a bunch of bad apples in his time at KU.
( btw saying Self has brought in a bunch of bad apples does not imply that I don't think Self also has brought in a bunch of good apples )

I think it is the nature of the pool of players they are fishing in, not a knock on Self specifically. I think that both football and basketball has a higher percentage of humans more prone to these types of situations than the general pool of humans in that age range.

Tell me more.

Maybe when I have more time to sit down and carefully craft my response. If I did it now, it would be rushed and not have my whole attention. I have to roll out to an appointment in about 20 minutes and need to get a few more work things done prior to that. My response isn't some Jimmy The Greek style response if that's what you're fishing for.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:33 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:28 am

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:12 am Self sure has brought in a bunch of bad apples in his time at KU.
( btw saying Self has brought in a bunch of bad apples does not imply that I don't think Self also has brought in a bunch of good apples )

I think it is the nature of the pool of players they are fishing in, not a knock on Self specifically. I think that both football and basketball has a higher percentage of humans more prone to these types of situations than the general pool of humans in that age range.

Part of it, too - and take it to the Politics bored! - is that from before these kids are even teenagers, they are often others' meal/lottery tickets. It is very, very difficult for parents/coaches/etc. to hold kids accountable, where (for example) something as modest as being benched for a game or tournament can cause the kid to miss out on next level opportunities.

This isn't intended to blame or absolve anyone - just an illustration of the complexity of the issue.

These kids, especially ones from underprivileged backgrounds, are under an extreme amount of pressure and stress to make good on their athletic talents. Add in family factors, constant "yes men" in their ears telling them they are the sun around which everything revolves, etc... the list of factors that contribute to these situations is very long and complicated.

Shirley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:19 am

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:16 am Friend just texted me asking how/why Self still has a job at Kansas and what needs to happen for the school to boot him. Not a bad/unfair question.
While I think it's doubtful, there is of course the possibility this could be the end for Self - if Morris is found guilty.

What about this situation implicates HCBS so much?

Not so simple response.....
He's the guy who brought him to the University. Fair or not, many feel he's the guy who is responsible for the actions of his players.
Again, fair or not, I could be wrong but I believe the school has liability (and is in some deep shit) when one of it's students commits rape either on campus, in one of their dorms, and/or of another student.
I don't know the answer to this question - Does Girod absolve Self of any "wrong doing"? If I was Girod I would give Self a serious look in the eyes and a head shake at the very minimum. At the maximum I would fire him. My guess is something happens in-between.

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:40 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:33 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:28 am

I think it is the nature of the pool of players they are fishing in, not a knock on Self specifically. I think that both football and basketball has a higher percentage of humans more prone to these types of situations than the general pool of humans in that age range.

Part of it, too - and take it to the Politics bored! - is that from before these kids are even teenagers, they are often others' meal/lottery tickets. It is very, very difficult for parents/coaches/etc. to hold kids accountable, where (for example) something as modest as being benched for a game or tournament can cause the kid to miss out on next level opportunities.

This isn't intended to blame or absolve anyone - just an illustration of the complexity of the issue.

These kids, especially ones from underprivileged backgrounds, are under an extreme amount of pressure and stress to make good on their athletic talents. Add in family factors, constant "yes men" in their ears telling them they are the sun around which everything revolves, etc... the list of factors that contribute to these situations is very long and complicated.

And, for folks of limited means (and limited means of advancement), the incentives FOR correcting "small potatoes" behavior are swallowed whole by the incentives AGAINST stopping the train.

Incentivize short-sighted decisionmaking, and you'll get short-sighted decisionmaking. Engage (at scale) in short-sighted decisionmaking, and you'll get long-term consequences. Unfortunately it's just math.

Such an ugly situation, but for the sake of KU and the alleged victim, this is prob the best thing to happen.

Really didn’t want him around.

And yea, not a great look for Self and the program, but considering we suspended him (I think as soon ad the allegations surfaced? Hopefully) and subsequently dismissed him upon news of the arrest, that’s at least better than like, yea some Oats shit

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:22 am

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:16 am Friend just texted me asking how/why Self still has a job at Kansas and what needs to happen for the school to boot him. Not a bad/unfair question.
While I think it's doubtful, there is of course the possibility this could be the end for Self - if Morris is found guilty.

Huh? Because he gave a kid a second chance and the kid fucked it up? That's absurd.

If he pretended that Morris did nothing and continued to participate with the team as if nothing had happened then I feel it would be appropriate to ask that question.

The friend wasn't just referring to this single incident. Let's be honest here, Self has had more than his fair share of shit happen during his tenure at KU. Now one of his players ALLEDGEDLY raped a woman in the Basketball dorm? As my friend basically implied, when is enough enough/too much?
No matter how you, or I, or anyone else chooses to slice it, it's yet ANOTHER real bad look for the Basketball program and the University during the Bill Self era.

give him a free pass. "society made him do it"

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:49 am give him a free pass. "society made him do it"

Finger right there on the pulse, as usual.

Laura Bauer must smell blood right now…

Morris had retained Lawrence lawyer Hatem Chahine.

Chahine has previously represented a variety of KU athletes in criminal cases, including basketball players Carlton Bragg, Silvio De Sousa, Josh Jackson and Jalen Wilson and football player Pooka Williams, as the Journal-World reported.

Self and the program did nothing wrong or negligent.

The initial recruitment is where you could consider the wrong judgement call.
From the information we have, Self and the program did nothing wrong in this situation after that.

I don't have a problem with giving second chances

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:23 pm The initial recruitment is where you could consider the wrong judgement call.
From the information we have, Self and the program did nothing wrong in this situation after that.

It's probably also true that, depending on where you draw the line, something around half of the recruitable athletes have, themselves or in their circle, flags that are at least yellow.

Competitively, can you afford NOT to take kids with flags? Not if you're trying to win at the level we're trying to win at.

I would imagine you also get something of a god complex, from the numerous successes (on and off the court) you've had with kids with flags.

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:49 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:22 am

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:16 am Friend just texted me asking how/why Self still has a job at Kansas and what needs to happen for the school to boot him. Not a bad/unfair question.
While I think it's doubtful, there is of course the possibility this could be the end for Self - if Morris is found guilty.

Huh? Because he gave a kid a second chance and the kid fucked it up? That's absurd.

If he pretended that Morris did nothing and continued to participate with the team as if nothing had happened then I feel it would be appropriate to ask that question.

The friend wasn't just referring to this single incident. Let's be honest here, Self has had more than his fair share of shit happen during his tenure at KU. Now one of his players ALLEDGEDLY raped a woman in the Basketball dorm? As my friend basically implied, when is enough enough/too much?
No matter how you, or I, or anyone else chooses to slice it, it's yet ANOTHER real bad look for the Basketball program and the University during the Bill Self era.

Tell us your friend is a Duke* fan, without telling us...





*UK, UNC...

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:31 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:28 am

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:12 am Self sure has brought in a bunch of bad apples in his time at KU.
( btw saying Self has brought in a bunch of bad apples does not imply that I don't think Self also has brought in a bunch of good apples )

I think it is the nature of the pool of players they are fishing in, not a knock on Self specifically. I think that both football and basketball has a higher percentage of humans more prone to these types of situations than the general pool of humans in that age range.

Tell me more.

Hahahah. Say it

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:16 am Friend just texted me asking how/why Self still has a job at Kansas and what needs to happen for the school to boot him. Not a bad/unfair question.
While I think it's doubtful, there is of course the possibility this could be the end for Self - if Morris is found guilty.

I always thought you were fearful and a pessimist. But holy shit. This was a real conversation?

randylahey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:01 pm

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:16 am Friend just texted me asking how/why Self still has a job at Kansas and what needs to happen for the school to boot him. Not a bad/unfair question.
While I think it's doubtful, there is of course the possibility this could be the end for Self - if Morris is found guilty.

I always thought you were fearful and a pessimist. But holy shit. This was a real conversation?

You think the Democrats are engineering societal collapse by 2030 or something. But tell me more about fantastical overreaction.

Please, no poli talk here.
Please.