Kansas Crimson

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:17 am

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:13 am Just know that the base of this current argument is that Vick was a below average player under Bill Self.
Or that he hurt us more than he helped us.
I'm not arguing he's a top 25 player under Self but I am arguing he was above average.

Well - what's happening is you know you're losing on your real argument, so you're picking out easier windmills to tilt at.

What's my real argument?
Go back and read the thread.

Another thing that people aren't mentioning is if someone gets hurt during the season, can you count the rest of that season against them?
If we found out that Vick was bipolar/borderline would that change anyone's opinion?
I'd say very little judging from the amount of posters just coming back to this thread to flame.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:20 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:17 am

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:13 am Just know that the base of this current argument is that Vick was a below average player under Bill Self.
Or that he hurt us more than he helped us.
I'm not arguing he's a top 25 player under Self but I am arguing he was above average.

Well - what's happening is you know you're losing on your real argument, so you're picking out easier windmills to tilt at.

What's my real argument?
Go back and read the thread.

I'll help you out:
I think it's fine to criticize his on the court behavior.
And his off the court behavior if it's something that is hurting others.

There are 2 main problems I have an issue with:
1. Discrediting his accomplishments on the court - he's an above average to good player - his mistakes are exacerbated on this board.
2. To celebrate his absence because of a personal matter not knowing at all what it could be.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:15 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:07 am Face palm.

You said this last night:
"He's a 1,000pt scorer.
I stand by the statement that he's helped us more than he's hurt us. Even relative to average scholarship players. We've had a lot of guys not do shit, or transfer, or get forced out, etc."

You agree with me but are still arguing.

I fully agree with you that he's helped us more than he's hurt us.

The facepalm was only directed at the Dok/Embiid comment.

I'm only disagreeing with you about where he'd fall on a ranking of our Self Era players and how his stats don't tell the whole story.

Did I put a ranking to where Vick would fall of our Self era players?
My argument is that overall he's been above average and maybe even good.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:30 am Did I put a ranking to where Vick would fall of our Self era players?
My argument is that overall he's been above average and maybe even good.

But your argument has also been that this is an open and shut case based on counting stats.

Well stats.
Also final fours and elite eights which not every Bill Self player has been a part of.

I also know this will raise a lot of hell, especially with the JFish's, CnB's and illy's, but when a player leaves as an underclassmen to the NBA, they take a hit in my book.
So a guy like Embiid, Wiggins, Henry, Oubre, McLemore etc just don't measure up to Jayhawks who stayed 3 or 4 years.
This is a subjective rather than objective measurement but just as valid as some of the other subjective arguments presented here.

Beyond stats, a take at the tenure:

Frosh year: No impact
Soph year: No impact + 3 game suspension for serious off the court distractions
Junior year: was told this was his last year, good start, up and down season, benched and called out twice for attitude/effort, ended up the 6th most important player on the team during the important part of the season.
Junior break: exited program as planned, begged back on team, granted a conditional return
Senior year: If he's truly gone: great start that turned into a wild disaster, rumored to leave school without a degree.

Vick's lows have been way lower than his highs have been high.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:39 am ended up the 6th most important player on the team during the important part of the season.

LOL.
Just started every game during the most important part of the season and never scored fewer than 10 points until the loss v Nova ( in which he scored 8 ).
It's stuff like this that is clearly biased which throws CnB's arguments off the road.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:39 am Soph year: No impact

By conference play Vick was averaging 24 MPG.
No impact.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:47 am And we weren't gonna beat ksu at ksu with our without Vick.

With this statement, one can only assume you didn't watch that game.

All you've done is throw points out there. Of the millions other intangibles to the game of basketball, how many does he bring that greatly benefit a team to make him some irreplaceable player that you seem to be defending? The only consistent thing Vick brought to any game was the question of if he will be worth a damn that night.

“make him some irreplaceable player”

Not my argument.

Ok, but still didn't answer the question. Other that inconsistent scoring numbers, what does he bring to make him "above average" in the Self era?

Vick’s an above average to good player.
I get why he’s not anyone’s favorite ( he’s not mine on this team, nor was he before Ochai shed his shirt ).
I think some of you aren’t following what I’m arguing and are shifting the goal posts. He’s done some great things at KU, some of which may never be done again. He’s also done some not so great things at KU, some of which may never be done again.

NDballer13 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:55 am Ok, but still didn't answer the question. Other that inconsistent scoring numbers, what does he bring to make him "above average" in the Self era?

Shoots 47 and 46 percent from 3 his last 2 years. Inconsistent.

Does games started or minutes played do anything for you?

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:00 am Does games started or minutes played do anything for you?

It depends. Need context. Need to look at roster composition.

He hasn't had much competition for minutes the last 2 years....so that makes it hard to use as a way to compare to players from other teams with better bench players.

It's also why using pts and not looking at roster composition and scoring breakdown is faulty.

Vick averaged more pts than BRush ever did this season.....BRush is FAR superior to Vick.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:00 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:58 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:42 am

And Vick's last game was 7 points and 2 turnovers in 19 spaced out, lethargic, lackadaisical minutes in a loss at Kansas State that could cost us the streak of Big 12 titles.

Actually, Vick’s last game will likely be the last in a consecutive string of DNP-CD’s during the most important part of the conference season and all of the postseason. That’s way worse than the Kansas State game.

Even though box scores don’t do this, every game that Vick misses should be thought of as goose eggs and a hit to his stats per game average.

Man Udoka and Embiid have some really bad stats then.

I am pretty sure that missing games due to being injured should be viewed differently than missing games due to being an idiot.