Kansas Crimson

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:52 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:38 pm

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:06 pm I'd put him in the Carlton Bragg frosh year category, both top 25-30 kinda guys.
Around 8-9 MPG.

Maybe. The only forwards ahead of Bragg that year for big man minutes were Perry Ellis and Landen Lucas.

It seems like there are a lot more guys than that ahead of Udeh right now.

It seems there were 2 for Bragg (perry and landen) and are 2 for Udeh (kj and clemence). LOL

The 2 for Bragg started at the two different forward positions. The competition for those same TWO positions for Udeh includes Wilson, Clemence, Adams, Ejiofor and Martin.

So yeah, LOL.

Uh what? Udeh is not battling for minutes at the 4.

Nice try. Udeh has 2 guys (at most) ahead of him at the 5. Clemence and KJ.

I hope Udeh is good enough to get 8-12 mpg. We'll start hearing the rumblings out of practice soon enough. Saw a nice alley oops from Harris to Udeh on twitter this morning.

I personally feel that the "he's a 4, he's a 5" thing is a concept that is long gone. You're either a forward or a guard any more unless you're a humongous human like Dok.

Udeh is good enough that it's possible he plays (earns) 20min+ right off the bat. You're talking about him like he's a borderline top 100 recruit or something.

I don't think that'll be the case, but it's possible. A LOT depends on if KJ plays significant minutes at the 5.

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:26 am I personally feel that the "he's a 4, he's a 5" thing is a concept that is long gone. You're either a forward or a guard any more unless you're a humongous human like Dok.

LOL

Shooting and defensive versatility matter. We want to switch 1-4 on defense. You can't do that with Udeh at the 4 and Clemence at the 5 imo.

The concept of positions is not "long gone". It's evolved. But you still can't throw a bunch of random guys out there with skill sets that don't compliment each other.

Well I gotta agree with illy here. Perhaps the only positions defensively you can differentiate between in Self's recent defensive schemes is the 5 from positions 1-4.

Can KJ and Jalen play the 5 on defense? They can, but who knows if they will. It's almost a chicken-and-egg thing: Udeh doesn't play many minutes b/c we are playing small w/ KJ and/or Jalen to switch all 5 spots on defense OR we play small b/c Udeh isn't ready to play very many minutes at this point in his career.

My personal preference is to not play KJ or Jalen much, if at all, at the 5. Both are too short, Jalen can't jump, and KJ's not a strong defensive rebounder. Of course, there may be a game or 2 or 3 where we play a team that mostly plays 5 quick wings and it requires us to adjust.

I really hope Udeh is ready to get clock. A ton riding on Clemence, of course.

The fact Jalen played almost no minutes at the 5 last year leads me to believe that won't change this year now that we have even more/better options at the 5.

The real question is will KJ play the 5 much? I think he will a little bit. But due to his size and lack of shot blocking ability, I think we would be better served with Clemence and Udeh consuming those minutes. Obviously we will play some smaller teams early in the season where KJ is plenty capable of playing the 5.

The other big question I have is how much we play a lineup of Jalen at the 3, KJ at the 4, and Clemence at the 5. It could be a lot. That lineup may lack some shooting, but size and defense/rebounding would be elite.

Even more and better options at the 5? I'd have to disagree. We lose David, whom started almost every game at the 5. Mitch played above his talent level at the 5 last season, as well, which was at least part of the reason Jalen saw less time at the 5 in 2022 than he did in 2021.

I thought KJ showed a ton of promise, but it was at the 4 and not at the 5. Clemence also has a ton of room to grow before becoming a reliable 5. Lot of question marks at that position which is why we are seeing some publications penciling in a true freshman as the starter at that position.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:13 am The real question is will KJ play the 5 much? I think he will a little bit. But due to his size and lack of shot blocking ability,

Yeah, that block vs Miami at the end of the half was nothing to write home about

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:18 am Even more and better options at the 5? I'd have to disagree. We lose David, whom started almost every game at the 5. Mitch played above his talent level at the 5 last season, as well, which was at least part of the reason Jalen saw less time at the 5 in 2022 than he did in 2021.

I thought KJ showed a ton of promise, but it was at the 4 and not at the 5. Clemence also has a ton of room to grow before becoming a reliable 5. Lot of question marks at that position which is why we are seeing some publications penciling in a true freshman as the starter at that position.

Fwiw I wasn't including Dave because we were never going to play Jalen (or anyone) over Dave unless it was a special circumstance.

So last year Jalen at the 5 scenario was essentially a choice between JW Mitch KJ or Clemence. This year it'll be between (in theory) JW, improved KJ, improved Clemence, Udeh, and maybe longshot Zuby or Cam.

Also, Jalen is AWFUL at interior defense as the 5.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:24 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:18 am Even more and better options at the 5? I'd have to disagree. We lose David, whom started almost every game at the 5. Mitch played above his talent level at the 5 last season, as well, which was at least part of the reason Jalen saw less time at the 5 in 2022 than he did in 2021.

I thought KJ showed a ton of promise, but it was at the 4 and not at the 5. Clemence also has a ton of room to grow before becoming a reliable 5. Lot of question marks at that position which is why we are seeing some publications penciling in a true freshman as the starter at that position.

Fwiw I wasn't including Dave because we were never going to play Jalen (or anyone) over Dave unless it was a special circumstance.

So last year Jalen at the 5 scenario was essentially a choice between JW Mitch KJ or Clemence. This year it'll be between (in theory) JW, improved KJ, improved Clemence, Udeh, and maybe longshot Zuby or Cam.

Also, Jalen is AWFUL at interior defense as the 5.

Mitch was pretty easily the best option out of all of those guys (which is saying something b/c it's Mitch). If Udeh can give us what Mitch did last year plus what looks like better natural rim protecting and rebounding skills, we're not just going to be OK, Udeh is going to start and be good.

Jalen's interior defense is indeed not ideal, but I didn't think I saw anything great out of KJ or Clemence there either--which is a big reason why we went with a below replacement level 6th year senior as the spell.

I don't see any big difference between KJ and Jalen at the 5, so again, this is all in hope that we won't be in that position save for a game or two when matchups dictate it. Meaning, Clemence and Udeh need to bring it.

KJ appears to be much stronger than Jalen. That's probably his biggest advantage over Jalen at the 5. That and Jalen doesn't seem to have much of a verticle. At least not in game situations.

Agree Mitch was definitely the best non Dave option at the 5 for the vast majority of last year.

Another thing I wonder right now regarding lineups is if we play small at times to get some transition offense going. If scoring is an issue, we'll have to sacrifice some defense, and Self has been more willing to do that lately (2022, 2018).

I still can't believe that Mitch freaking Lightfoot turned out to be a key contributor to a national title team at Kansas.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:35 amKJ appears to be much stronger than Jalen. That's probably his biggest advantage over Jalen at the 5. That and Jalen doesn't seem to have much of a verticle. At least not in game situations.

Agree. But then Jalen is taller with the taller standing reach, way better rebounder (which means better footwork and instincts), and less likely to get into foul trouble. So, kind of a wash and neither ideal.

Is Jalen really taller than KJ?

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:35 am Another thing I wonder right now regarding lineups is if we play small at times to get some transition offense going. If scoring is an issue, we'll have to sacrifice some defense, and Self has been more willing to do that lately (2022, 2018).

We certainly have the rotation for it in short bursts. Frankly, we have a ton of intriguing lineup possibilities this coming season.

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:37 am I still can't believe that Mitch freaking Lightfoot turned out to be a key contributor to a national title team at Kansas.

Which contributes to make me wonder if rim protection is now not as important as it used to be.

Ability to move feet on ball screens, ability to switch on the perimeter, and ability to run people off the three point line might be a better indicator of a good defensive team, now. 2023 Kansas has potential to be a great defensive team even without a proven rim protector.