Kansas Crimson

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:21 pm The elite can’t be bothered with the trivials of the everyday folks. Everymans problems don’t penetrate the country club walls.

Those making the decisions are not impacted.

Remember when you celebrated that government employees weren't getting paid?

HouseDivided wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:15 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:11 pm

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:04 pm I guess we’re gonna find out what the long term fallout is to our “at any cost“ approach to virus fighting.

What? I...I think this is very obviously (again) pointed 180 degrees away from the truth.

We're about to find out what the long term fallout is to the "the virus is over because I'm bored and say so" approach to virus fighting.

You're completely mischaracterizing the argument. It's nothing as trivial as boredom. It has everything to do with having a job and a life to go back to - which will not be the case for many people if we continue down the road we're on.

But I think this is where you have to draw some rational lines around things. I find no fault in anger or desperation about losing jobs or shifts or revenue, etc. But god damn, do I ever find fault in the "it's my God-given right to crowd this bar" crowd. The "it's time to reopen (because I am bored)" crowd.

Fuck all, man. We're fucking lost when there is not a collective sense of duty to stay home, if you can stay home without it affecting your livelihood.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:25 pm
Fuck all, man. We're fucking lost when there is not a collective sense of duty to stay home, if you can stay home without it affecting your livelihood.

How very Canadian of you. I almost shed a tear.

What % or our economy do you think is from:

Retail
Restaurants
Bars
Manufacturing

What % of those working in the above can stay and not have their livelihood affected.

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:34 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:25 pm
Fuck all, man. We're fucking lost when there is not a collective sense of duty to stay home, if you can stay home without it affecting your livelihood.

How very Canadian of you. I almost shed a tear.

What % or our economy do you think is from:

Retail
Restaurants
Bars
Manufacturing

What % of those working in the above can stay and not have their livelihood affected.

...you're welcome to actually respond to what I said, which is bolded above for reference.

And of course you're asking the wrong question. The question is, "what do we do to help these people for whom simply going to work is not really going to help, because customers don't want to show up?"

A bad answer is: fuck it, you're all on your own, the only way out is to gather in groups and spend money.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:25 pm

HouseDivided wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:15 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:11 pm

What? I...I think this is very obviously (again) pointed 180 degrees away from the truth.

We're about to find out what the long term fallout is to the "the virus is over because I'm bored and say so" approach to virus fighting.

You're completely mischaracterizing the argument. It's nothing as trivial as boredom. It has everything to do with having a job and a life to go back to - which will not be the case for many people if we continue down the road we're on.

But I think this is where you have to draw some rational lines around things. I find no fault in anger or desperation about losing jobs or shifts or revenue, etc. But god damn, do I ever find fault in the "it's my God-given right to crowd this bar" crowd. The "it's time to reopen (because I am bored)" crowd.

Fuck all, man. We're fucking lost when there is not a collective sense of duty to stay home, if you can stay home without it affecting your livelihood.

I disagree with the choice of wording, i.e. duty, but I do agree that there are more important things than being able to go to a bar. I think that is part of the risk of overdoing things like we have - people only stay motivated by fear for so long and then there is a rebound effect, which is what we are experiencing now.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:41 pm

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:34 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:25 pm
Fuck all, man. We're fucking lost when there is not a collective sense of duty to stay home, if you can stay home without it affecting your livelihood.

How very Canadian of you. I almost shed a tear.

What % or our economy do you think is from:

Retail
Restaurants
Bars
Manufacturing

What % of those working in the above can stay and not have their livelihood affected.

...you're welcome to actually respond to what I said, which is bolded above for reference.

And of course you're asking the wrong question. The question is, "what do we do to help these people for whom simply going to work is not really going to help, because customers don't want to show up?"

A bad answer is: fuck it, you're all on your own, the only way out is to gather in groups and spend money.

Exactly, there are things we CAN do to help unemployed and underemployed people. Not perfect solutions, but solutions none the less.

For covid patients there is now one approved treatment, which helps, but is far from a cure.

There are no easy answers to this. And I don't think the best decisions have always been made. But mitigation did significantly slow the spread of the virus.

We got doctors and lawyers lecturing the tool and die makers and the bartenders and the cashiers and the waitresses and the barber about how they should be proud to stay home and take it for the team.

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:49 pm We got doctors and lawyers lecturing the tool and die makers and the bartenders and the cashiers and the waitresses and the barber about how they should be proud to stay home and take it for the team.

Yup. It rings hollow when you don't have a paycheck coming in.

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:49 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:41 pm

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:34 pm

How very Canadian of you. I almost shed a tear.

What % or our economy do you think is from:

Retail
Restaurants
Bars
Manufacturing

What % of those working in the above can stay and not have their livelihood affected.

...you're welcome to actually respond to what I said, which is bolded above for reference.

And of course you're asking the wrong question. The question is, "what do we do to help these people for whom simply going to work is not really going to help, because customers don't want to show up?"

A bad answer is: fuck it, you're all on your own, the only way out is to gather in groups and spend money.

Exactly, there are things we CAN do to help unemployed and underemployed people. Not perfect solutions, but solutions none the less.

But, are they better than the solutions we have to bring back people from the dead?

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:49 pm We got doctors and lawyers lecturing the tool and die makers and the bartenders and the cashiers and the waitresses and the barber about how they should be proud to stay home and take it for the team.

I had to stay home.

I'm pretty sure a lot of manufacturing jobs are still going and many were considered essential.

This isn't a blue collar vs white collar thing. It was originally about essentiality. Now it's about jobs that can be done safely and those that can't.

I mean, you think dentists are doing well right now? Certainly not compared to a fedex delivery driver or grocery store employee.

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:49 pm We got doctors and lawyers lecturing the tool and die makers and the bartenders and the cashiers and the waitresses and the barber about how they should be proud to stay home and take it for the team.

Why are you arguing against a position I'm not taking?

I know for a fact my dentist buddies are doing better than the checkout gals at the walmart.

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 1:07 pm I know for a fact my dentist buddies are doing better than the checkout gals at the walmart.

I'm happy to hear the one's you know are doing well. Many had their incomes go away completely.

Lots are nervous right now. Unemployed, salary cuts, etc. Including doctors, lawyers, dentists, some that I know personally. Nearly everyone I talk to still understand the why and support a reasonable, fact-based re-opening. Including my family and friends that live next to psych where I grew up. Including those here in metro KC that I live next to.

I also do have retail clients--they're busy as hell. Busier than I. Everyone wants this to end, but that doesn't mean it's over.

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 1:01 pm

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:49 pm We got doctors and lawyers lecturing the tool and die makers and the bartenders and the cashiers and the waitresses and the barber about how they should be proud to stay home and take it for the team.

I had to stay home.

I'm pretty sure a lot of manufacturing jobs are still going and many were considered essential.

This isn't a blue collar vs white collar thing. It was originally about essentiality. Now it's about jobs that can be done safely and those that can't.

I mean, you think dentists are doing well right now? Certainly not compared to a fedex delivery driver or grocery store employee.

saw a story yesterday that implied that those doing most of the protesting don’t fall into a “working class” demographic

many, if not most, are protesting because their employers aren’t doing enough to protect them when they do go back into work

As Thomas Jefferson never said: "Dissent is highest for of patriotism!"

Therefore, Mich must bitch!

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 8:04 pm As Thomas Jefferson never said: "Dissent is highest form of patriotism!"

Therefore, Mich must bitch!

fyp

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:49 pm We got doctors and lawyers lecturing the tool and die makers and the bartenders and the cashiers and the waitresses and the barber about how they should be proud to stay home and take it for the team.

Trump took a crisis and turned it into a complete shit show. The U.S. has less that 5 percent of the world’s population and more than 33-percent of the deaths. The stuff you have been incessantly bitching about you created. Many of us warned against electing a moron in Putin’s pocket. Now you deflect the harm that you and your Ilk caused by attacking reasonable people trying to keep you and your ilk from dying. We are on target to 100,000 known dead by next week. Meanwhile red states hide the numbers of infected people in nursing homes, plants and prisons. People who had no business behind bars in the first place are dying for misdemeanor charges. Business can open, but you know there is no will for the maskless freedom fighters to follow even basic public health policies.

Do we really believe we've had 33% of the deaths in the world? I'm sorry, but I just don't believe our healtcare systems are that inferior to other places. That's where I'm skeptical of some of the numbers. I dont trust China's numbers. I don't trust Russia's numbers...now Brazil is blowing up. What about deaths per million people? I absolutely know we've been one of the hardest hit (primarily due to NYC), but I dont think our response has been significantly worse than everywhere else in the world. As good as South Korea, absolutely not. Worse than most other places? I'm a little skeptical.

I dont think our response was adequate or acceptable. But I also dont fully place the blame on Trump (I definitely think he deserves his fair share of the blame though). Very few people were pressing the panic button in December/January on either side if the isle. It was talked about sure, but it wasn't a loud majority saying "holy shit we need to shut everything down right now".

I've been very vocal around here about how serious me and my family have taken this situation. So spare me with the hillbilly republican lecture, because I'm far from that. I have done my part to flatten the curve and prevent the spread. My wife and kids haven't really left the house in months. I've only briefly gone into my office that only has 2 or 3 people there. If anything I've thought our reopening strategy in red AND blue states has been a bit aggressive in the more densely populated areas.