Kansas Crimson

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:57 am U.S. and other foreign officials worked successfully behind-the-scenes to convince Israel to back off an initial 24-hour evacuation notice to some 1 million people living in northern Gaza.
…
…some Arab officials are rooting for U.S. efforts to succeed, though they acknowledge it could be a while before long-term results.

“There is no doubt in my mind that without American leadership, we would be in a far tougher position now,” one Arab diplomat said.

Honestly, this gives me hope.

I like the idea of Merica as a world leader, if that world leader role involves trying to be the adult in the room, and not just like, the world leader in arms brokering.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:43 pm Man, all that “hospital damage was Hamas” seems once again pretty gaslighty. as if Israel is NOT indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza either way.

But, let’s roll with it, and assume Hamas did somehow get a bunch of long range missiles into one of the most intensely surveilled places in the world.

At the very least, it’s a testament to Israeli security being a clown show.

Your last two sentences are ignorant. I'm just sayin'.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:43 pm Man, all that “hospital damage was Hamas” seems once again pretty gaslighty. as if Israel is NOT indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza either way.

But, let’s roll with it, and assume Hamas did somehow get a bunch of long range missiles into one of the most intensely surveilled places in the world.

At the very least, it’s a testament to Israeli security being a clown show.

Yes, of course. Of the two, Israel is far more likely than Hamas to be "gaslighty."

How so?

ETA to gutter

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:46 pm
Your... sentences are ignorant. I'm just sayin'.

Evergreen post.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:47 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:43 pm Man, all that “hospital damage was Hamas” seems once again pretty gaslighty. as if Israel is NOT indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza either way.

But, let’s roll with it, and assume Hamas did somehow get a bunch of long range missiles into one of the most intensely surveilled places in the world.

At the very least, it’s a testament to Israeli security being a clown show.

Yes, of course. Of the two, Israel is far more likely than Hamas to be "gaslighty."

You realize this “Stand with Israel” is being sold by the exact same dipshits who sold you on WMDs in Iraq, right?

And what exactly is an evergreen post.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:47 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:43 pm Man, all that “hospital damage was Hamas” seems once again pretty gaslighty. as if Israel is NOT indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza either way.

But, let’s roll with it, and assume Hamas did somehow get a bunch of long range missiles into one of the most intensely surveilled places in the world.

At the very least, it’s a testament to Israeli security being a clown show.

Yes, of course. Of the two, Israel is far more likely than Hamas to be "gaslighty."

On second thought, I shoulda just taken this post at face value, and say,

You’re right.

https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/ ... 8112805253

"Even anti-Israel sources in Gaza are reporting that the explosion at Al-Ahly hospital was likely a misfired rocket."

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:47 pm How so?

ETA to gutter

Gutter can speak for himself, but I'm assuming he's saying it's ignorant to take what you think you know about Israeli "security" and surveillance and assume it works that way within Gaza.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:52 pm https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/ ... 8112805253

"Even anti-Israel sources in Gaza are reporting that the explosion at Al-Ahly hospital was likely a misfired rocket."

The thing is - we know Israel wouldn't have intentionally done this, it would go horrendously against their own self interest.

I'm also of the understanding that neither a Hamas rocket nor a missile from an Israeli jet could cause that kind of explosion. Could be wrong.

Either way I would think that they should stop airstrikes until some kind of quick-as-possible investigation is done. Assuming that can be done within a day or two, but, like with the previous paragraph, not sure I know what I'm talking about.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:47 pm How so?

ETA to gutter

"But, let’s roll with it, and assume Hamas did somehow get a bunch of long range missiles into one of the most intensely surveilled places in the world".

* My response....
A. You realize this happened in Gaza. Right?
B. So how/why would Hamas need to get a bunch of long range missiles (assumption) in to Gaza? Wouldn't they have already been there?
C. Hamas fires rockets from all over Gaza. Including near hospitals - for a reason.


"At the very least, it’s a testament to Israeli security being a clown show".

* My response....
A. What would/does Israeli security have to do with the "bombing" of a Hospital IN GAZA that MAY have been either an intentional or unintentional strike from a Hama rocket/missile/bomb?
B. Yes, Israeli security is far from perfect but if you/we were to "assume" Hamas was responsible, why would this be a testament of Israeli security being a "clown show"?

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:14 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:52 pm https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/ ... 8112805253

"Even anti-Israel sources in Gaza are reporting that the explosion at Al-Ahly hospital was likely a misfired rocket."

The thing is - we know Israel wouldn't have intentionally done this, it would go horrendously against their own self interest.

I'm also of the understanding that neither a Hamas rocket nor a missile from an Israeli jet could cause that kind of explosion. Could be wrong.

Either way I would think that they should stop airstrikes until some kind of quick-as-possible investigation is done. Assuming that can be done within a day or two, but, like with the previous paragraph, not sure I know what I'm talking about.

This sounds snarky but isn't meant to: not sure how Israel is supposed to "investigate" this without, you know, sending armor into Gaza City.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:36 pm

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:14 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:52 pm https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/ ... 8112805253

"Even anti-Israel sources in Gaza are reporting that the explosion at Al-Ahly hospital was likely a misfired rocket."

The thing is - we know Israel wouldn't have intentionally done this, it would go horrendously against their own self interest.

I'm also of the understanding that neither a Hamas rocket nor a missile from an Israeli jet could cause that kind of explosion. Could be wrong.

Either way I would think that they should stop airstrikes until some kind of quick-as-possible investigation is done. Assuming that can be done within a day or two, but, like with the previous paragraph, not sure I know what I'm talking about.

This sounds snarky but isn't meant to: not sure how Israel is supposed to "investigate" this without, you know, sending armor into Gaza City.

in an effort at objectivity and transparency, it’d have to something like a U.N. effort, right?

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:41 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:36 pm

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:14 pm

The thing is - we know Israel wouldn't have intentionally done this, it would go horrendously against their own self interest.

I'm also of the understanding that neither a Hamas rocket nor a missile from an Israeli jet could cause that kind of explosion. Could be wrong.

Either way I would think that they should stop airstrikes until some kind of quick-as-possible investigation is done. Assuming that can be done within a day or two, but, like with the previous paragraph, not sure I know what I'm talking about.

This sounds snarky but isn't meant to: not sure how Israel is supposed to "investigate" this without, you know, sending armor into Gaza City.

in an effort at objectivity and transparency, it’d have to something like a U.N. effort, right?

Maybe. But what's the point? If someone concludes that this was done by Israel, Israel will deny it. If someone concludes that this was done by Hamas, Hamas will deny it.

I do not believe that Israel is "indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza." Nor do I believe that there have not been, and will not be, hundreds if not thousands of non-combatant casualties at Israel's hands.

To me, the truth (in the big picture) about whether or not Israel is doing this "right" is both: (1) somewhere in the middle, and (2) fundamentally, permanently unknowable.

I do not believe that Israel is "indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza." Nor do I believe that there have not been, and will not be, hundreds if not thousands of non-combatant casualties at Israel's hands.

that seems to be the narrative of just one person here

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:36 pm

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:14 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:52 pm https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/ ... 8112805253

"Even anti-Israel sources in Gaza are reporting that the explosion at Al-Ahly hospital was likely a misfired rocket."

The thing is - we know Israel wouldn't have intentionally done this, it would go horrendously against their own self interest.

I'm also of the understanding that neither a Hamas rocket nor a missile from an Israeli jet could cause that kind of explosion. Could be wrong.

Either way I would think that they should stop airstrikes until some kind of quick-as-possible investigation is done. Assuming that can be done within a day or two, but, like with the previous paragraph, not sure I know what I'm talking about.

This sounds snarky but isn't meant to: not sure how Israel is supposed to "investigate" this without, you know, sending armor into Gaza City.

I would say it's accounting for every missile that was fired and where it ended up.
Which now they say they've done and that it wasn't them.
I have no clue what to believe, other than, again, Israel has no motive to do this, and they're not bombing indiscriminately. The fact that there have been far more missiles than deaths in such an area proves that.

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:04 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:36 pm

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:14 pm

The thing is - we know Israel wouldn't have intentionally done this, it would go horrendously against their own self interest.

I'm also of the understanding that neither a Hamas rocket nor a missile from an Israeli jet could cause that kind of explosion. Could be wrong.

Either way I would think that they should stop airstrikes until some kind of quick-as-possible investigation is done. Assuming that can be done within a day or two, but, like with the previous paragraph, not sure I know what I'm talking about.

This sounds snarky but isn't meant to: not sure how Israel is supposed to "investigate" this without, you know, sending armor into Gaza City.

I would say it's accounting for every missile that was fired and where it ended up.
Which now they say they've done and that it wasn't them.
I have no clue what to believe, other than, again, Israel has no motive to do this, and they're not bombing indiscriminately. The fact that there have been far more missiles than deaths in such an area proves that.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you. We're just living in a post-truth world; for chrissakes, 1/3 of this country firmly believes, without evidence, that our most recent presidential election was stolen!

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:04 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:36 pm

mjl2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:14 pm

The thing is - we know Israel wouldn't have intentionally done this, it would go horrendously against their own self interest.

I'm also of the understanding that neither a Hamas rocket nor a missile from an Israeli jet could cause that kind of explosion. Could be wrong.

Either way I would think that they should stop airstrikes until some kind of quick-as-possible investigation is done. Assuming that can be done within a day or two, but, like with the previous paragraph, not sure I know what I'm talking about.

This sounds snarky but isn't meant to: not sure how Israel is supposed to "investigate" this without, you know, sending armor into Gaza City.

I would say it's accounting for every missile that was fired and where it ended up.
Which now they say they've done and that it wasn't them.
I have no clue what to believe, other than, again, Israel has no motive to do this, and they're not bombing indiscriminately. The fact that there have been far more missiles than deaths in such an area proves that.

I would also say - it's so, so important to apply context.

With the context that Biden is set to visit Israel tomorrow - what makes more sense?

(a) Israel intentionally (or even indiscriminately) bombed the fuck out of a hospital?; or

(b) Hamas blew up a hospital in a false flag op?

(c) hamas blew up a hospital out of incompetence