Kansas Crimson

We just lost by 30 at Texas Tech.
Ochai had 0 points last night and we shot 33% from 3.
It's all fixed now though because Vick is gone.

There's a lot more that goes into being on a team and being good a teammate than the 2hr games twice a week. That's only 4hrs a week.

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:21 pm

Geezer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:20 pm How'd Tech do in Allen?

A helluva lot better than we did in Lubbock.

There are degrees of losing?

Yes.

Lonestarjayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:45 am

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:21 pm

Geezer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:20 pm How'd Tech do in Allen?

A helluva lot better than we did in Lubbock.

There are degrees of losing?

yes

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:19 pm We just lost by 30 at Texas Tech.
Ochai had 0 points last night and we shot 33% from 3.
It's all fixed now though because Vick is gone.

The deeper you dig you feet in the ground to defend Vick, the more I'm convinced you know nothing about the subtle things of basketball and depend solely on box scores to justify your beliefs.

It's more a response to CnB's kumbaya.
We've won the games we're supposed to and lost ( BIG, like never before ever big ) the game we weren't.
Beating ksu at home ( which we've done every single year since 2006 ) isn't surprising ( check my GTS, we own ksu at AFH ).

Will it be good to win versus the 8th and 9th place teams on the road?
100%. Any B12 road win is big.
Would it be because Vick isn't playing? No. I'm still confident his skillset on the court helps us more than it hurts us.

There's nothing really to convince me otherwise ( unless Ochai and Grimes each go for ~14 PPG from here on out ) so I'm not certain why people keep coming back to argue.

What about his personality in the locker room?

It's tough to go to battle with guys not trying hard or running plays half speed when the ball isn't coming his way.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:41 am It's more a response to CnB's kumbaya.
We've won the games we're supposed to and lost ( BIG, like never before ever big ) the game we weren't.
Beating ksu at home ( which we've done every single year since 2006 ) isn't surprising ( check my GTS, we own ksu at AFH ).

Will it be good to win versus the 8th and 9th place teams on the road?
100%. Any B12 road win is big.
Would it be because Vick isn't playing? No. I'm still confident his skillset on the court helps us more than it hurts us.

There's nothing really to convince me otherwise ( unless Ochai and Grimes each go for ~14 PPG from here on out ) so I'm not certain why people keep coming back to argue.

Because no one has argued he doesn't bring a skill (shooting) that is needed. The point everyone else makes, that you never seem to understand, is that with that skill comes a lot of negative aspects that don't necessarily fall in the category of "skillset".

Attitude. Effort. Focus. Where do things like that fall when you're grading a player. Like I said in my last post, try looking outside of the box score when defending him.

If Vick is 100% locked in, he absolutely helps the team. Problem is, will he be locked in? If so, how long will he be? They say the result of shots sometimes effects how you play the other end of the floor. That has never been more apparent than when it is LaGerald Vick. Except he doubles down on it and it effects his offensive effort when a play is not drawn up specifically for him.

after thinking about it more, I think there was some credible reason for Vick to take a leave, and Self ultimately used it as a high road reason and context, once he was considering dismissal either way.

Self feels Vick is violating the terms of his return, calls him out, Vick says "yeah but I'm acting checked out cuz I'm worried about mama under the weather" and Self said ok then go take care of it.

We don't know what the exact terms were, but can only imagine they were strict. It's not a stretch to think Vick violated them. And what are we to expect of Self? Is he supposed to relax the terms he imposed just cuz the dude's a senior, or just cuz this year's roster could use the bodies?

shrug.

NDballer13 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:23 am

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:41 am It's more a response to CnB's kumbaya.
We've won the games we're supposed to and lost ( BIG, like never before ever big ) the game we weren't.
Beating ksu at home ( which we've done every single year since 2006 ) isn't surprising ( check my GTS, we own ksu at AFH ).

Will it be good to win versus the 8th and 9th place teams on the road?
100%. Any B12 road win is big.
Would it be because Vick isn't playing? No. I'm still confident his skillset on the court helps us more than it hurts us.

There's nothing really to convince me otherwise ( unless Ochai and Grimes each go for ~14 PPG from here on out ) so I'm not certain why people keep coming back to argue.

Because no one has argued he doesn't bring a skill (shooting) that is needed. The point everyone else makes, that you never seem to understand, is that with that skill comes a lot of negative aspects that don't necessarily fall in the category of "skillset".

Attitude. Effort. Focus. Where do things like that fall when you're grading a player. Like I said in my last post, try looking outside of the box score when defending him.

And I argue that people here give him a particularly negative eye when it comes to these things you can't measure.
Can't argue against Dotson -- he's been nails.
But:
Garrett was late to a couple switches last night that led to open 3's.
Lightfoot was chicken with his head cut off on a few plays that led to dunks.
Dedric takes breaks on the defensive side and takes boneheaded shots on the offensive side.
Let's not get started on Charlie and KJ.
Ochai has the attitude and effort but his focus has been scattered ( however you want to define focus ) and he's been negated the last two games. But if he goes 0-1 for 0 points it's ok because he's trying.
Grimes has been better of late ( his effort last night was tops ) but he's normally not impactful on either side of the court.

It's not just Vick that doesn't give 100% effort 100% of the time. People here are just itching to find where they feel Vick isn't giving his all. In the ksu loss people were trashing Vick for his defensive effort - go back and look at the tape - he's contesting shots in the 2nd half, and some of them happened to fall - but the defensive lapses were also on the rest of the team ( Grimes got burned, Dotson didn't close out etc etc ).

yeah, but none of Garrett Lightfoot Dedric Ochai Grimes had to beg to get their spot back on the team, and agree to strict terms to do so. (and let's not even get started about Laura Bauer)

at the end of the day, are you really trying to argue that Self doesn't know best?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:25 am after thinking about it more, I think there was some credible reason for Vick to take a leave, and Self ultimately used it as a high road reason and context, once he was considering dismissal either way.

Self feels Vick is violating the terms of his return, calls him out, Vick says "yeah but I'm acting checked out cuz I'm worried about mama under the weather" and Self said ok then go take care of it.

We don't know what the exact terms were, but can only imagine they were strict. It's not a stretch to think Vick violated them. And what are we to expect of Self? Is he supposed to relax the terms he imposed just cuz the dude's a senior, or just cuz this year's roster could use the bodies?

shrug.

There are a few rumors out there...

The most credible that I've heard is that Vick was basically kicked off the team by Self, but Self did him a solid by not completely ruining his reputation to the media...remember, he was basically kicked off last year, he also got bad press for kicking a girl in the face....so essentially Self wanted to wash his hands of the situation and move on, but did it in a way not to further damage a kid that's already got issues and has the deck stacked against him.

I think that's just a different way of saying the same thing.

"I think it's fine to criticize his on the court behavior.
And his off the court behavior if it's something that is hurting others.

There are 2 main problems I have an issue with:
1. Discrediting his accomplishments on the court - he's an above average to good player - his mistakes are exacerbated on this board.
2. To celebrate his absence because of a personal matter not knowing at all what it could be."

"at the end of the day, are you really trying to argue that Self doesn't know best?"
No:

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:41 am "I think it's fine to criticize his on the court behavior.
And his off the court behavior if it's something that is hurting others.

There are 2 main problems I have an issue with:
1. Discrediting his accomplishments on the court - he's an above average to good player - his mistakes are exacerbated on this board.
2. To celebrate his absence because of a personal matter not knowing at all what it could be."

Is there an echo in here?

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:42 am "at the end of the day, are you really trying to argue that Self doesn't know best?"
No:

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:41 am "I think it's fine to criticize his on the court behavior.
And his off the court behavior if it's something that is hurting others.

There are 2 main problems I have an issue with:
1. Discrediting his accomplishments on the court - he's an above average to good player - his mistakes are exacerbated on this board.
2. To celebrate his absence because of a personal matter not knowing at all what it could be."

1. has anyone tried to say "let's discredit all those big shots he hit?" and what about all the bonehead shots and unforced turnovers and general midseason regression he seemed to slump into, yet again? It almost seems like you wanna excuse all that.
2. is anyone celebrating? I haven't noticed anyone saying YAAAY I'M SO GLAD VICK IS GONE. The tone has seemed much more so to simply be, bummer but we're not surprised.

If Self felt Vick should take a leave but you disagree, then just write a nice letter for the suggestion box about how Self should shrug off all those terms he imposed for Vick, and/or should shrug off the personal issues significant enough to take a leave, and ride that senior off into the sunset regardless?

any celebration is happening because many/most of us have been thrilled with the way the team has played, with the exception of tech

sure, those games may not have been against the cream of the big12 crop, but does that really matter? the strength of the conference is that there are generally no cupcakes, right?