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Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:53 am
by Shirley
KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:28 am
heavy, for sure
gives me new respect for AC, too
When I opened the link and got an impression of what I might be getting into, I almost didn't watch it. I'm glad I did. The mother is an inspiration.
Apparently the IDF got international journalists together yesterday and gave them a private showing of, (if I heard Joe Scarborough accurately), 47 minutes of raw footage and pictures taken by Hamas invaders during the massacre on Oct. 7. I've heard it described as "gruesome", but not a lot more info. If only they could show it publicly to counter the propaganda Hamas and their enablers are spreading, but of course, they haven't.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:37 pm
by KUTradition
this may be a naive/ignorant question, but where are the Gazans calling for the ousting of hamas?
i’m reminded of the saying that the only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing
i tried to find any kind of source that had innocent Gazans calling out hamas, but found nothing
somebody help me out here
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:47 pm
by Shirley
KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:37 pm
this may be a naive/ignorant question, but where are the Gazans calling for the ousting of hamas?
i’m reminded of the saying that the only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing
i tried to find any kind of source that had innocent Gazans calling out hamas, but found nothing
somebody help me out here
In my uneducated opinion, there's no alternative, so why raise your voice and get thrown off a roof for letting Hamas know you're a traitor to their cause?
June 12, 2007
For Gaza taxi driver Tamer Ammar, the internal fighting became all-out civil war when militants started killing their rivals by throwing them off 15-storey buildings and mutilating their bodies.
“I think we are in Iraq, not in Gaza,” said Ammar, a 40-year-old father of six.
“Snipers on rooftops killing people. Bodies mutilated and dumped in the streets in very humiliating ways. Houses bombarded and civilians killed. What else does civil war means but this?”
A surge in factional fighting between ruling Hamas Islamists and President Mahmoud Abbas’s secular Fatah faction has killed at least 20 Palestinians in the last four days alone.
Well over 600 Palestinians have been killed in factional fighting since Hamas came to power in March 2006 after defeating Fatah in parliamentary elections, according to one prominent Palestinian human rights group.
[...]
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:58 pm
by jfish26
KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:37 pm
this may be a naive/ignorant question, but where are the Gazans calling for the ousting of hamas?
i’m reminded of the saying that the only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing
i tried to find any kind of source that had innocent Gazans calling out hamas, but found nothing
somebody help me out here
This sounds snarky but isn't intended to be - how exactly would Gazans speak out? Particularly
without endangering themselves and their families? And particularly with electricity and internet being spotty at best (and I have no idea if the internet is
open, anyway). I'm also sure there's a Stockholm Syndrome element to things.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:21 pm
by KUTradition
not snarky at all
and i’m sure my question could be misconstrued as victim-blaming, which is most definitely not my intent
i guess i’m just trying to make sense of it all…hamas having been in “power” in Gaza for 15 years and what do Palestinians have to show for it?
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:34 pm
by DCHawk1
WSJ reports that the 4 missiles shot down by the USS Carney from Yemen were Iranian-made. Also, the Saudis intercepted a fifth.
Think about that: the Saudis literally defending Israel.
What a world.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:06 pm
by mjl2
DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:34 pm
WSJ reports that the 4 missiles shot down by the USS Carney from Yemen were Iranian-made. Also, the Saudis intercepted a fifth.
Think about that: the Saudis
literally defending Israel.
What a world.
I saw that - it was basically the highlight of the day. The Saudis shooting down a missile headed for Israel. They're the key to peace.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:23 am
by KUTradition
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:26 pm
by jfish26
You don’t say.
https://x.com/juliadavisnews/status/171 ... q_-8Yt1KMA
Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova confirmed that a Hamas delegation is indeed in Moscow.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:48 pm
by Shirley
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:59 pm
by KUTradition
i saw that this morning…immediate thought was, this can’t be good
but, then i had a moment (admittedly fleeting) of optimism
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:29 pm
by Shirley
Under the circumstances, I have refrained from talking about how I feel about Netanyahu. Last Sat I was listening to the BBC and they were interviewing Israelis in Israel, and there was no, zero, love lost for him. People felt like his concern for his own political and legal future resulting in a huge divide in the country over him wanting to transform the courts, as well as bringing inexperienced ultra-conservatives into his cabinet in order to be able to form a government, left Israel vulnerable, and they were pissed off about it.
October 27, 2023-It is not clear what will happen next in the war in Israel and Gaza, but it is possible that the Biden administration will be able to use its leverage to guide Israel in a smarter direction. Keeping Netanyahu in power must not be an American goal even as it is the primary goal of the Israeli PM
Mitchell Minute -The Biden Administration and Netanyahu
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 2:30 pm
by mjl2
He has been awful.
And he's refusing to remove the extremists, which is resulting in Lapid refusing to join the "unity" government.
I doubt he has a clear endgame in mind with all this.
This is certainly going to end his political career. The question is how soon.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 2:41 pm
by KUTradition
do you think there’s any chance he gets ousted ahead of any elections?
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 4:14 pm
by mjl2
I don't understand elections there. A friend tried to explain it to me, it didn't work. My understanding is that parliament or the President could call for elections whenever.
Next elections are scheduled for 2026. I would be absolutely shocked if he lasts that long.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 4:29 pm
by mjl2
Mjl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:38 am
Likud and Netanyahu are back in power. Also an even further right-wing party managed to get several seats in Parliament.
Bloody hell, this could be really bad for all sides. Arab Israelis could have prevented it if they turned up to vote in greater numbers, but so many abstain as a protest (despite anti-Zionist Arabs always winning some seats as well)
When I wrote this a year ago, I didn't realize how bad it could be when I said "this could be really bad".
That said - Hamas' attacked Israel while Lapid was PM as well in August '22. I don't think anyone would have prevented this attack. But I do think that Lapid or Gantz would have handled it better. Easy to say because it can't be proven or disproven.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:28 am
by ousdahl
jfish26 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:56 am
ousdahl wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:27 am
Honestly, I can take the cue to “sit down” better than being called a liar, Goebbels, a holocaust denier, wait I mean just the same thing as a holocaust denier, a bitch, pro-Putin, and - the bangiest banger of all - not thinking critically.
So, I guess I’ll go sit down.
Now, could anyone please recommend a good slouchy chair in which to sit?
I think the reactions you’re seeing are BECAUSE you otherwise have a solid reputation around these parts. Personally, I don’t like seeing the curious, somewhat-contrarian side of you getting sucked down a weird path.
I think there’s a lane for the sorts of things you’re wanting to bring up - the moral murkiness of all of it, the fundamental blameworthiness of many/most/all actors, etc.
But I also think you’re missing a couple major shifts. Putin waging a conventional war against Ukraine is a massive one. So is our diplomatic response on Israel - Biden couching his advice to Israel in terms of the mistakes made post-9/11, for example - is another.
I’m not the boss of this or any other bored. But personally, my opinion is that 1.3% of your opinions are tarnishing the rest, and the reaction you’re getting is indicative of people not wanting to see that happen.
Which is NOT to say that the only worthy opinions are consensus ones. Far from it. But I personally would take your contrarian points more seriously if you would avoid anchoring yourself to hills that are not worth dying on.
hi!
just checking in.
let me stress, I don't wanna stir up another shit-throwing contest, I swear.
but if I may ask, with as little snark intended as possible:
are we allowed to discuss anything that might deviate from the consensus opinions yet?
or maybe the question should be, what exactly is the lane for bringing up these sorts of things?
but, the thing is...this situation is so fucked up, I can't help but feel like speaking up about it IS some hill worth dying on.
Like for real, do you realize how many kids in Gaza have been killed by Israeli forces with bombs paid for by you and me?! (Assuming that's not just more Hamas/Putin propaganda, I guess.)
It bothers me! and honestly, if it does NOT bother you, then maybe the discussion should be, who exactly among us has been sucked down the weird path.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:41 am
by mjl2
For those thinking the UN is a neutral party - this body that has condemned Israel more than any other country was not able to pass a resolution condemning Hamas for the October 7th attacks.
https://x.com/greg_price11/status/17180 ... 94852?s=20
Just disgusting. If they can't condemn that incident, they shouldn't exist.
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 10:20 am
by RainbowsandUnicorns
Re: Israel/Palestine
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 11:05 am
by Shirley
Sad, but I guess I’m glad there is some pushback.
I gave up looking for pro-Jewish demonstrations to attend around here.